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The worst possible antitrust outcome

pluralistic.net

171–180 of 219 posts

Re: The worst possible antitrust outcome

#171
post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that why call things getting "borked"?

It is not. Judge Bork was proposed as a candidate for the US Supreme Court. While the Senate was reviewing his nomination they began discussing his actual views on various topics which were so abhorrent that the Senate voted not to confirm him. The conservative community complained he had been treated unfairly and coined the term.

The Senate voted not to confirm Bork because Democrats controlled the Senate 55-45 and had the power to insist on a more ideologically liberal nominee. (Which I think is a fair use of the advice and consent power by the way. And a successful gambit, because they got Anthony Kennedy, who swung liberal on many key votes.)

Bork was subject to attacks on his views of constitutional law. Many of the attacks were just not true. The Wikipedia write up on this is quite even-handed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Bork.

Apart from that, “abhorrent” is not a word that makes sense in discussing legal interpretation. It’s a category error. For example, Bork believed the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (which his party got through Congress) was unconstitutional. To this day, the law rests on shaky Commerce Clause footings with all sorts of exceptions and caveats to avoid conflict with the first amendment freedom of association and to overcome Congress’s lack of authority to regulate morality directly.[1] The attacks on him over it was midwits having an emotional reaction to a complex legal debate that was beyond their understanding.

Bork’s antitrust theories, and its foundation in armchair economics analysis, is far better target for criticism. Ironically, that wasn’t the subject of Ted Kennedy’s speech against his candidacy.

[1] You can see this tension in the laws themselves. Why doesn’t the Fair Housing Act apply to small, owner-occupied rental properties? Because Congress lacks the constitutional power to force people to not be racist in their choice of who they live with. In more than half a century, liberals haven’t even seriously attacked these carve outs even though they would seem like low hanging fruit.

Re: The worst possible antitrust outcome

#172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I understand what distinction you're drawing between ideological opposition to rich people existing and opposition to disproportionately powerful people existing. In what hypothetical world are these not the exact same thing? Money is a unit of exchange that exists to compel action. That's the point of it, and is just another way of saying "power over others". A world where being rich doesn't grant power…

> A world where being rich doesn't grant power over others is one where money isn't money. First off, my money doesn't grant me power over anybody and it's still money. That leaves only one logically possible version of your statement and the correction looks like this: "A world where being rich doesn't grant power over others is one where big money isn't big money" In that form, your statement is perfectly logical,…

> First off, my money doesn't grant me power over anybody and it's still money.

Of course it does. Call the cleaning service, see if your money can't compel someone to come clean your house while you sit on your ass. Or more indirectly, try to picture the chinese kid making your shoes for a meager wage, and try to explain what, if not your money, is compelling them to do so this menial, repetitive and unfulfilling task for you.

Re: The worst possible antitrust outcome

#173
post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What gives you that impression? I get that they are used that way at times, but the core purpose of taxation is to generate revenue for the government.

Because that's the definition of the term. The other concept is called duties.

No, it's not. One example definition of tax: a charge usually of money collected by the government from people or businesses for public use.

A duty is a type of tax.

Re: The worst possible antitrust outcome

#174
post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It just means to me that you haven't put much thought into this. What about the federal government gives you the impression that they'd be responsible stewards of the money you want to confiscate and redistribute?

That's not a point, actually. The only people who haven't thought this through are libertarians. The government does lots of things well. That's why those in power are trying to destroy it right now. Here's where you go "But it's not perfect, therefore it can't work." or maybe "all taxation is theft".

Keep deflecting.

It's clear you have very little historical or economic knowledge about taxation, and it seems like the sum total of your thoughts on the matter is: taking money from people I don't like makes me feel good.

Re: The worst possible antitrust outcome

#175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I understand what distinction you're drawing between ideological opposition to rich people existing and opposition to disproportionately powerful people existing. In what hypothetical world are these not the exact same thing? Money is a unit of exchange that exists to compel action. That's the point of it, and is just another way of saying "power over others". A world where being rich doesn't grant power…

> Money is a unit of exchange that exists to compel action. That's the point of it Citation required. Money is an intermediary form of exchange. It arises organically because if, for example, you are a dairy farmer, there is no practical way for you to a) save enough milk to barter for a house (not only is it perishable but where do you store it all? Especially before refrigeration) and b) find someone with a house t…

That's not how barter really worked in practice.

Pre-modern societies generally had very little currency and only used it for large transactions. Smaller transactions happened through debt and transfers of debt.

The transaction wouldn't be "I give you a bunch of milk and you give me a house" it would be "You give me the house and I'll give you milk every day for the next 5 years" or something like that.

Or it might be "Bob owes me a calf the next time his cow gives birth. I'll transfer that debt to you and give you eggs for a year and you give me the house."

Vendors who have debt relationships with a very large number of people would often get together with other vendors and swap debts to consolidate them into a more manageable number of debts.

Even if the debt was denominated in units of currency, it was typically settled in goods rather than currency because typical people just didn't have access to much currency.

Re: The worst possible antitrust outcome

#176
post #112
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and sold to the highest bidder. Yikes, you are doing it too. Does accuracy in prose not count anymore? When you have a strong case you shouldn’t have to bend the facts.

Google Adwords is quite literally using the data they have harvested from you and selling ad placements based on it to the highest bidder in its ad auction system. There was zero hyperbole in that statement.

> using the data they have harvested from you and selling ad placements

You changed what you wrote to make it accurate now, but refused to admit that and instead just prepended it with "literally"!

Wonderfully ironic given that we are talking about being accurate in your writing!

Re: The worst possible antitrust outcome

#177
post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because that's the definition of the term. The other concept is called duties.

No, it's not. One example definition of tax: a charge usually of money collected by the government from people or businesses for public use. A duty is a type of tax.

> a charge usually of money collected by the government from people or businesses for public use.

Yes and what makes it a tax is the intention. If it is to regulate a market to be more free, it's a tax, otherwise it's a duty.

Re: The worst possible antitrust outcome

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This othersideism helps no one. Your beloved democrats haven't squat to reign in big tech either.

What should we do? Where do we go from here?

Stop trying to pretend that higher taxes on Larry Page or the estate of Steve Jobs would change the size of Google or Apple and instead break them up.

Re: The worst possible antitrust outcome

#179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google doesn't share your data with other companies.

I've literally written code that takes the firehose of data Google shares "anonymously" and deanonymizes it. They share data, it's just too obfuscated for people to understand it's happening. If this wasn't happening there wouldn't be a million companies in the ad tech space.

code as proof?

Re: The worst possible antitrust outcome

#180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> These firms got no "special privilege " from government, did they? They did and still do. They spend millions lobbying the government to make it harder for outsiders to break into their industries.

So we're back to square one then, and came to agree on the original premise: Money is a unit of exchange that exists to compel action.

No, not money. The problem is not that Google, Amazon, etc. can buy special privileges from the government; the problem is that the government has them for sale. It's government power that's the root of the problem, not money. If the government didn't have the power to give out such special privileges (which comes from the power to issue regulations that all businesses must obey), it wouldn't matter how much money Google or Amazon or anyone else had.

In other words, what's "compelling action" here is the government, and its power to do that is not based on money. But since the government is run by humans, who can be bought, the government's power to compel things ends up being for sale. And even if you magically took away all that money from Google and Amazon and spread it around evenly, that would just mean government favors would get curried in other ways. (Plus the fact that, even if you spread the money around evenly once, it wouldn't stay that way.)

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