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Google has eliminated 35% of managers overseeing small teams in past year

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Re: Google has eliminated 35% of managers overseeing small teams in past year

#171

Post by xenotux »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #165
xenotux wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TLM roles are a trap, but not in that sense. There's no expectation that you do two jobs at once. It's just a way to ease unsuspecting engineers into management. If you don't suck at management, your team inevitably grows (or you're handed over other teams), and before long, you're managing full-time. Which means that there are three type of people who remain TLMs in the long haul: those who suck at management; those…

> If you don't suck at management, your team inevitably grows Inevitably because why? > those who suck at management If higher management can figure out not to put more people under them, why can't it figure out to remove the existing people under them? > those managing dead-end projects on dead-end teams If "dead-end" just means "not growing" then that sounds fine. When a company does thousands of things only a smal…

Look, I'm trying to describe reality; you seem to be expecting me to defend it. But briefly:

> Inevitably because why?

Because proven, effective managers are always in short supply, so when you hire new people, or if any of the existing managers leaves, it's the default pick.

Plus, most people want to make more money over time. And on the management track, this means angling for that director / VP role down the line, even if it wasn't your childhood dream.

> If higher management can figure out not to put more people under them, why can't it figure out to remove the existing people under them?

They can, but in big and / or growing companies, performance problems are addressed less vigorously than they probably should. This cuts both ways: neglecting problems is wrong, but cutthroat performance management makes people cranky too.

Re: Google has eliminated 35% of managers overseeing small teams in past year

#172

Post by tayo42 »

eigen wrote: post #141
tayo42 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This hasn't been true in a lot of companies for like my entire career. You can move up as an ic. Titles like Staff, senior staff principal. A Staff and Sr manager would be paid the same

> A Staff and Sr manager would be paid the same do they report to the same level? every place I've seen a "technical track" and "management track" it seems the higher level technical people report to someone on the same or even lower level in management. I.E. a manager can have technical reports that are equal level or higher. that obviously doesn't happen in the management track. not that these are first level manag…

Why does the reporting chain matter? They're separate roles and jobs so the manager is leveled differently.

If I'm a jr engineer reporting to a director does that give me more authority then a staff engineer reporting to a manger?

Management is a different job, it would be leveled differently.

Maybe a high level IC needs to work closely with a team for a bit so they just report to the manager of the team.

Re: Google has eliminated 35% of managers overseeing small teams in past year

#173

Post by samsonradu »

phendrenad2 wrote: post #160

First they laid off the non-technical employees. As a big tech company, Google needs to focus on coding. But that wasn't enough, so they laid off the middle managers in charge of coders. As a big tech company, Google needs to focus on coding. But that wasn't enough, so they laid off the low-level managers who were the domain experts on each product. As a big tech company, Google needs to focus on pure coding, and any…

Isn't it already prospering?

Re: Google has eliminated 35% of managers overseeing small teams in past year

#174

Post by kelnos »

AnotherGoodName wrote: post #11

This was called the TLM role at google. Technical Lead/Manager. You were expected to code and manage a couple of more junior engineers. It’s part of an effort to have dedicated managers and dedicated engineers instead of hybrid roles. This is being sold as an efficiency win for the sake of the stock price but it’s really just moved a few people around with the TLMs now 100% focused on programming.

I think this is a good thing. Every time I've seen people in dual tech/management roles at any company, they've always been incredibly stressed about their job, and always have way too much to do.

I've also never really liked the idea of engineering managers who are technical enough to approve/veto tech decisions that team members make, since there's a power imbalance there. Even if your TLM is pushing a bad technology choice, you might not want to push back too hard because they're also responsible for your performance review and comp changes and whatnot.

Re: Google has eliminated 35% of managers overseeing small teams in past year

#175

Post by kelnos »

B-Con wrote: post #82
AnotherGoodName wrote: post #11

This was called the TLM role at google. Technical Lead/Manager. You were expected to code and manage a couple of more junior engineers. It’s part of an effort to have dedicated managers and dedicated engineers instead of hybrid roles. This is being sold as an efficiency win for the sake of the stock price but it’s really just moved a few people around with the TLMs now 100% focused on programming.

GOOG has made a systemic push to eliminate the role starting ~3 years ago. At that time my M was a staff level IC TLM with 4 reports who was forcibly converted to EM. In those last 3 years I've only seen TLMs used to assist an overloaded EM. The pattern I've seen is something like: Principal EM |- Staff EM (7 reports, project A) |- Staff EM (8 reports, project B) |- Staff IC (projects A, B, C) |- Senior IC (projects…

Wait, so you have ICs who work on multiple projects, and report to a different manager depending on the project? That sounds like a nightmare. Having one manager to manage is usually enough work...

Re: Google has eliminated 35% of managers overseeing small teams in past year

#176

Post by skylurk »

lokar wrote: post #153

It goes in cycles. I remember the last time G did this (2006?) they had the 7 rule: No manager with more then 7 reports No IC with more then 7 managers between them and CEO

How is that number picked?

7 people with one manager seems fine. It could go up to 10 maybe, but that's just my own vibes.

7 layers thick of management feels like too much to me. You'll get a company full of professional middle management who's jockeying define the company culture and strategy. Is that the point? Vibes seem off though.

Is there a more scientific approach?

Re: Google has eliminated 35% of managers overseeing small teams in past year

#177

Post by kelnos »

xenotux wrote: post #61
corytheboyd wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TLM role has always sounded like a trap to me, I would never say yes to it personally. I’m sure it’s sold as an expected 50% code, 50% management but everyone I’ve talked to who has been near it says the expectation is more like 80% code 80% management.

TLM roles are a trap, but not in that sense. There's no expectation that you do two jobs at once. It's just a way to ease unsuspecting engineers into management. If you don't suck at management, your team inevitably grows (or you're handed over other teams), and before long, you're managing full-time. Which means that there are three type of people who remain TLMs in the long haul: those who suck at management; those…

> There's no expectation that you do two jobs at once.

I laughed out loud when I read this. I've never seen anyone at any company in a hybrid tech/manager role that wasn't expected to do two jobs at once. Or at least they felt like they were, which is still the same problem.

80% coding & 80% management for that role sounds about right.

Re: Google has eliminated 35% of managers overseeing small teams in past year

#178

Post by johnnyanmac »

kelnos wrote: post #174
AnotherGoodName wrote: post #11

This was called the TLM role at google. Technical Lead/Manager. You were expected to code and manage a couple of more junior engineers. It’s part of an effort to have dedicated managers and dedicated engineers instead of hybrid roles. This is being sold as an efficiency win for the sake of the stock price but it’s really just moved a few people around with the TLMs now 100% focused on programming.

I think this is a good thing. Every time I've seen people in dual tech/management roles at any company, they've always been incredibly stressed about their job, and always have way too much to do. I've also never really liked the idea of engineering managers who are technical enough to approve/veto tech decisions that team members make, since there's a power imbalance there. Even if your TLM is pushing a bad technolo…

>always been incredibly stressed about their job, and always have way too much to do.

So, no different from any other dedicate IC or manager at these companies?

>I've also never really liked the idea of engineering managers who are technical enough to approve/veto tech decisions that team members make, since there's a power imbalance there.

How is this different from any other manager or higher up making decisions? If your boss or boss's boss really wants something and you're not in a good market, it's never a good time to poke your head out.

Re: Google has eliminated 35% of managers overseeing small teams in past year

#179

Post by kelnos »

tibbar wrote: post #13
floren wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any opinion on the success/value of the TLM role?

Not OP, but I think TLM works best when it's a transitional role. You have someone you want to groom into a full-time manager, and you have a team that you plan to grow over time. TLM itself is not that efficient, but can lead to strong full-time managers who understand the team really well and had time to grow into the role.

I was thinking this too. Tech lead/developer and manager are two completely different jobs. I can see TLM as a useful transitional thing, while the person is being trained or mentored at being a manager (and hopefully not just thrown into the deep end). But 6 months, max 12, I think. Otherwise it just becomes a role where someone has two jobs and ends up overworked.

Re: Google has eliminated 35% of managers overseeing small teams in past year

#180

Post by johnnyanmac »

samsonradu wrote: post #173
phendrenad2 wrote: post #160

First they laid off the non-technical employees. As a big tech company, Google needs to focus on coding. But that wasn't enough, so they laid off the middle managers in charge of coders. As a big tech company, Google needs to focus on coding. But that wasn't enough, so they laid off the low-level managers who were the domain experts on each product. As a big tech company, Google needs to focus on pure coding, and any…

Isn't it already prospering?

Pretty much. Except Greg here is actually Gemini and they hope he can work 24/7 perfectly under the executives' convoluted, contradictory prompts.
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