Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Uncomfortable Questions About Android Developer Verification

commonsware.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

171–180 of 311 posts

Re: Uncomfortable Questions About Android Developer Verification

#171

Post by p0w3n3d »

Almondsetat wrote: post #30
teekert wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it so complex to have a foss mobile OS. I only have Linux PCs (laptops) and servers, 100% of my work and personal stuff is done there (though for work I do need to hop into MS365, Google Workspace, Zoom, etc, hooray for browsers, my final firewall between me and the walled gardens, though we can have a whole discussion on that). For mobile, we have PostmarketOS, Phosh, Ubuntu Touch. I really must try living in…

Linux is 30 years old, and still it has a laughable percentage of desktop usage. Plus, the only reason it's even usable is because of the relentless work by thankless developers for reverse engineering device drivers. On smartphones this is orders of magnitude more difficult. How do you properly profile and debug a random modem in a phone? What about the cameras? So, how can anyone expect FOSS mobile OSs to ever exis…

Law is no longer interested in giving freedom to people

Re: Uncomfortable Questions About Android Developer Verification

#173

Post by thrance »

sschueller wrote: post #2

The requirement of verification to side-load any app is fascist control. It is clear as night and day. Shame on Google and Apple, it was always clear this was the end goal and next up is also your PC. Right after will come the removal off apps they don't like and there is nothing you can do about it. Stallman was right

I'm all for calling out fascist behavior when it is spotted, but let's not muddy the waters further. This word is already denatured enough.

This is not fascism, this is just a rational move from Google in a market economy. It feels like every time something like this happens, Americans rediscover what capitalism is and implies, then blame it on "human nature", "greed" or "fascism".

Re: Uncomfortable Questions About Android Developer Verification

#174

Post by integralid »

_Algernon_ wrote: post #162
nine_k wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why is it so complex to have a foss mobile OS. This is not too hard. What is hard is to trust it enough. A FOSS OS, by definition, allows to install whatever software, and allows for modification of itself. It is built to overcome limitations, not impose them. In this regard, it's a perfect tool for a criminal who wants to circumvent security measures, because these are limitations. It's the same problem as with ch…

All this is true about Linux on desktop, though my bank still allows me to log in to online banking. At least for now. I'm not aware of any major issues this has caused. The trust isn't the issue. Google and Apple has made DRM easy for these companies to integrate, and therefore they do it. There isn't more to it than that.

>I'm not aware of any major issues this has caused

Decades of desktop malware used to drain bank accounts are not a major issue?

Re: Uncomfortable Questions About Android Developer Verification

#175

Post by _Algernon_ »

integralid wrote: post #174
_Algernon_ wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All this is true about Linux on desktop, though my bank still allows me to log in to online banking. At least for now. I'm not aware of any major issues this has caused. The trust isn't the issue. Google and Apple has made DRM easy for these companies to integrate, and therefore they do it. There isn't more to it than that.

>I'm not aware of any major issues this has caused Decades of desktop malware used to drain bank accounts are not a major issue?

You'd need to make a case that proprietary OSes such as Windows or MacOS lessen the issue compared to FOSS OSes such as Linux. I doubt it considering that Windows is / was known to be the worst offender here.

In any case my bank has not banned the use of Linux to do homebanking. Why? Because there isn't a easy to plug-and-play API to do DRM and remove consumer rights. This is largely for historic reasons, but there is no reason a FOSS mobile OS couldn't work.

Re: Uncomfortable Questions About Android Developer Verification

#176

Post by fzeindl »

mettamage wrote: post #23
sschueller wrote: post #2

The requirement of verification to side-load any app is fascist control. It is clear as night and day. Shame on Google and Apple, it was always clear this was the end goal and next up is also your PC. Right after will come the removal off apps they don't like and there is nothing you can do about it. Stallman was right

I asked an LLM, so I think I get it but could you try to mention what is meant with "Stallman was right"? The reason I'm asking you and not posting the LLM answer is because it still feels a bit icky to post an LLM answer for everything I don't understand [1]. [1] Feel free to discuss this too, if you want. I'm developing my opinion on it.

I find Stallmans views are best summed up by this quote from him:

“I could have made money this way, and perhaps amused myself writing code. But I knew that at the end of my career, I would look back on years of building walls to divide people, and feel I had spent my life making the world a worse place.”

Re: Uncomfortable Questions About Android Developer Verification

#177

Post by PeterStuer »

shermantanktop wrote: post #137
mac-mc wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pretty obvious, it's costly to make one that is up to the level of quality of commercial ones. It's not a mistake that the 2 mobile oses are owned and created by some of the largest and most profitable companies in the world.

It’s costly, but those two companies also operate in a hierarchical manner (like the military or a feudal kingdom) which makes decision-making and accountability much easier. The FOSS world has been rife with petty agree-or-fork squabbles, often over relatively abstract philosophical concerns about license language.

Look inside the kitchen of Microsoft or Google. It is comparable to all the FOSS world petty squables and pfiefdom wars.

You can even see this into the abominal products they release, rife with frankesteinian cobbled together bits and pieces from different 'orgs' trying to grab a piece of the (tr)action and the wild inconsistencies in the UX.

Re: Uncomfortable Questions About Android Developer Verification

#178

Post by 64718283661 »

Mordisquitos wrote: post #71
beardyw wrote: post #60

I know I risk being down voted remorselessly but I have to put this in context. Where in the real world is anonymity considered ok? If I only put a flyer through someone's letterbox here in the UK, I have to identify myself. If I sell a physical product I not only have to identify myself but take on serious legal liability. An author can take on a pseudonym but only via an identified publisher. In fact that latter ex…

> Where in the real world is anonymity considered ok? I am allowed to invite guests into my home even if their identity isn't pre-registered with my landlord.

But guests can't stay over night without registering them in many countries

Re: Uncomfortable Questions About Android Developer Verification

#179

Post by AnthonyMouse »

nine_k wrote: post #133
teekert wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it so complex to have a foss mobile OS. I only have Linux PCs (laptops) and servers, 100% of my work and personal stuff is done there (though for work I do need to hop into MS365, Google Workspace, Zoom, etc, hooray for browsers, my final firewall between me and the walled gardens, though we can have a whole discussion on that). For mobile, we have PostmarketOS, Phosh, Ubuntu Touch. I really must try living in…

> Why is it so complex to have a foss mobile OS. This is not too hard. What is hard is to trust it enough. A FOSS OS, by definition, allows to install whatever software, and allows for modification of itself. It is built to overcome limitations, not impose them. In this regard, it's a perfect tool for a criminal who wants to circumvent security measures, because these are limitations. It's the same problem as with ch…

> It is built to overcome limitations, not impose them. In this regard, it's a perfect tool for a criminal who wants to circumvent security measures, because these are limitations.

None of those limitations actually provide any security.

In order to use your bank's mobile app, you need your bank login credentials. It does not matter how secure a bank app on your phone is or whether it requires some kind of attestation because the attacker is going to get the victim to type them into a fake app or the attacker's web page which don't require any such thing and aren't even necessarily on the same device. And then it does not matter what kind of device you require the bank app to be installed on, because the attacker will get one of those and use the phished credentials in it.

There is no security value in requiring things that are useless.

> A FOSS OS also assumes that the user values the freedom, and is competent in its technical aspects.

This is not an assumption at all. The user is not required to write their own software or install anything from outside of a trusted repository. The value of the OS to such people is that someone else can write that software, and then as it matures it makes its way into the trusted repository.

But if mere mortals can't do that, if kids need an ID and a credit card in order to learn and experiment and hobbyists hit friction and spend their time on something else, then those things are killed in the cradle and never exist to begin with. And then instead of free software made by the people who wanted to use it, you're left with only apps made by predatory for-profit corporations and scammers that make it into the official store because their scams are profitable.

> It's a bit like driving on public roads. If you want to drive yourself, you have to reveal your identity and obtain a license.

It isn't a public road, it's your own phone.

Re: Uncomfortable Questions About Android Developer Verification

#180

Post by selfmodruntime »

sschueller wrote: post #2

The requirement of verification to side-load any app is fascist control. It is clear as night and day. Shame on Google and Apple, it was always clear this was the end goal and next up is also your PC. Right after will come the removal off apps they don't like and there is nothing you can do about it. Stallman was right

One day people on the internet will learn what the term „fascism“ entails. This is just plain old government overreach.
Post reply on HN