> One way that thinking for yourself goes wrong is that you realize your society is wrong about something, don’t realize that you can’t outperform it, and wind up even wronger. many such cases
Why are there so many rationalist cults?
171–180 of 947 posts
Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?
#172Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?
#173The whole game of Rationalism is that you should ignore gut intuitions and cultural norms that you can't justify with rational arguments. Well, it turns out that intuition and long-lived cultural norms often have rational justifications, but individuals may not know what they are, and norms/intuitions provide useful antibodies against narcissist would-be cult leaders. Can you find the "rational" justification not to…
Specifically, rationalism spends a lot of time about priors, but a sneaky thing happens that I call the 'double update'.
Bayesian updating works when you update your genuine prior believe with new evidence. No one disagrees with this, and sometimes it's easy and sometimes it's difficult to do.
What Rationalists often end up doing is relaxing their priors - intuition, personal experience, cultural norms - and then updating. They often think of this as one update, but what it is is two. The first update, relaxing priors, isn't associated with evidence. It's part of the community norms. There is an implicit belief that by relaxing one's priors you're more open to reality. The real result though, is that it sends people wildly off course. Care in point: all the cults.
Consider the pre-tipped scale. You suspect the scale reads a little low, so before weighing you tilt it slightly to "correct" for that bias. Then you pour in flour until the dial says you've hit the target weight. You’ve followed the numbers exactly, but because you started from a tipped scale, you've ended up with twice the flour the recipe called for.
Trying to correct for bias by relaxing priors is updating using evidence, not just because everyone is doing it.
Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?
#174Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't think Yudkowski is at all like L. Ron Hubbard. Hubbard was insane and pure evil. Yudkowski seems like a decent and basically reasonable guy, he's just kind of a blowhard and he's wrong about the science. L. Ron Hubbard is more like the Zizians.
I don't have a horse in the battle but could you provide a few examples where he was wrong?
[1] https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/8viKzSrYhb6EFk6wg/why-yudkow...
Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?
#175Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?
#176Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?
#177I think I found the problem! The rationalist community was drawn together by AI researcher Eliezer Yudkowsky’s blog post series The Sequences, a set of essays about how to think more rationally I actually don't mind Yudkowski as an individual - I think he is almost always wrong and undeservedly arrogant, but mostly sincere. Yet treating him as an AI researcher and serious philosopher (as opposed to a sci-fi essayist…
Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?
#178> One is Black Lotus, a Burning Man camp led by alleged rapist Brent Dill, which developed a metaphysical system based on the tabletop roleplaying game Mage the Ascension. What the actual f. This is such an insane thing to read and understand what it means that i might need to go and sit in silence for the rest of the day. How did we get to this place with people going completely nuts like this?
Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?
#179One of a few issues I have with groups like these, is that they often confidently and aggressively spew a set of beliefs that on their face logically follow from one another, until you realize they are built on a set of axioms that are either entirely untested or outright nonsense. This is common everywhere, but I feel especially pronounced in communities like this. It also involves quite a bit of navel gazing that m…
There should be an extremist cult of people who are certain only that uncertainty is the only certain thing
Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?
#180It's mostly just people who aren't very experienced talking about and dealing honestly with their emotions, no?
I mean, suppose someone is busy achieving and, at the same time, proficient in balancing work with emotional life, dealing head-on with interpersonal conflicts, facing change, feeling and acknowledging hurt, knowing their emotional hangups, perhaps seeing a therapist, perhaps even occasionally putting personal needs ahead of career... :)
Tell that person they can get a marginal (or even substantial) improvement from some rationalist cult practice. Their first question is going to be, "What's the catch?" Because at the very least they'll suspect that adjusting their work/life balance will bring a sizeable amount of stress and consequent decrease in their emotional well-being. And if the pitch is that this rationalist practice works equally well at improving emotional well-being, that smells to them. They already know they didn't logic themselves into their current set of emotional issues, and they are highly unlikely to logic themselves out of them. So there's not much value here to offset the creepy vibes of the pitch. (And again-- being in touch with your emotions means quicker and deeper awareness of creepy vibes!)
Now, take a person whose unexplored emotional well-being tacitly depends on achievement. Even a marginal improvement in achievement could bring perceptible positive changes in their holistic selves! And you can step through a well-specified, logical process to achieve change? Sign HN up!