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EU proposal to scan all private messages gains momentum

cointelegraph.com

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Re: EU proposal to scan all private messages gains momentum

#171

Post by izacus »

saithound wrote: post #92
johndhi wrote: post #51

Can someone explain how the same group of countries can simultaneously issue book-long regulations about how everyone needs to respect privacy to the nth degree, and run around the world trying to force others to do the same, yet also propose these kinds of things?

Sure. Most countries in the European Union have elections every 4-5 years. Thanks to these elections, the set of people composing the EU's main executive body, the European Commission, changed radically over 9 years. The EC of yesteryear preferred issuing book-long regulations about how everyone needs to respect privacy. The EC of today prefers burning those regulations [1] and writes legislation about how everybody…

And yet people down this thread claim that EU isn't democratic ;)

Re: EU proposal to scan all private messages gains momentum

#172

Post by lII1lIlI11ll »

emptysongglass wrote: post #165
lII1lIlI11ll wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The moderators of r/denmark are also currently blocking any submissions of this story to the subreddit. Can you shed more light on situation in Denmark? Why is this happening?

Danes are very proud of Denmark. It's a tiny country. There's a sense that we need to protect this tiny state from criticism because it's taken care of us. We've given the world Lego, Hans Christian Andersen, and we rank in the top two happiest countries in the world according to terrible measurements. So now we're the baddies, what do we do? We don't mention it. Ignorance is bliss.

Okay, but what justification do they provide for such behavior?

Re: EU proposal to scan all private messages gains momentum

#173

Post by izacus »

johndhi wrote: post #51

Can someone explain how the same group of countries can simultaneously issue book-long regulations about how everyone needs to respect privacy to the nth degree, and run around the world trying to force others to do the same, yet also propose these kinds of things?

Sometimes I feel community here can be a bit deliberately obtuse, but "I don't want Google and other companies reading my mail, but I'm ok with police scanning messages to catch child molesters." really isn't a rare position in the wild. Or a contradictory one.

The privacy laws you talk about all also have carveouts for governmental, intelligence and military work. No matter the hand wringing here, most EU governments (and even citizens) don't consider privacy legislation to require equivalent footing for governments and for private corporations. A lot of EU citizens are fine with laws like GDPR not holding for law enforcement and other similar institutions. Despite the risks and history.

Re: EU proposal to scan all private messages gains momentum

#174

Post by integralid »

snarf21 wrote: post #41
integralid wrote: post #25

I'm against any kind of censorship, chat scanning and privacy violations. Nevertheless: >Telegram founder Pavel Durov warned that France risks societal collapse if it continues down a path of political censorship and regulatory overreach. Durov was arrested in France in August 2024 after being accused of failing to moderate his app to reduce criminality Telegram is the messenger of choice for cybercriminals (not sign…

So there was no crime before Telegram? These kinds of things won't be used to stop malware or cybercrime anyway. They'll be used even more by those in power to subvert. The criminals will just move to another operating scheme.

Nice knee jerk reaction here (not just you, replies to me in general). We take down malicious domains and servers all the time. What's so special about group chats? As long as there is a proof it's used purely for criminal things and it's technically possible there is no excuse not to take them down.

The same applies in the physical world. Police has no right to enter your house. Except when they have a warrant, because you are already known to be guilty.

>The criminals will just move to another operating scheme.

Great! This is not an excuse to do nothing. They would use e2e if they were smart anyway. But they don't, because they like telegram and e2e is annoying to use (no channel history etc).

Re: EU proposal to scan all private messages gains momentum

#175

Post by integralid »

W3zzy wrote: post #39
integralid wrote: post #25

I'm against any kind of censorship, chat scanning and privacy violations. Nevertheless: >Telegram founder Pavel Durov warned that France risks societal collapse if it continues down a path of political censorship and regulatory overreach. Durov was arrested in France in August 2024 after being accused of failing to moderate his app to reduce criminality Telegram is the messenger of choice for cybercriminals (not sign…

It is a flex that will result in great pushbacks. If my government feels the need to monitor all my communication without proper reason I know they're only a step away from using my words against me. I will oppose any government that outlaws encryption and privacy. There are numerous accounts of peoples personal info being misused for crime. More than there are proven cases of encryption being used by criminals.

I'm not sure I was understood. I explicitly explained my stance on encryption at the beginning.

I neither have nor want to have the capability to spy on telegram users. But criminal groups use telegram as infrastructure all the time - for example telegram webhook used as a exfiltration method for stolen credentials.

Telegram refuses to cooperate in any way, for example to close the group chat exfiltrated credentials go to, or even to disable the webhook.

This is analogous to Facebook knowingly letting ISIS use it for terrorist attack coordination. You can't just operate a company and ignore every abuse report.

Re: EU proposal to scan all private messages gains momentum

#176

Post by integralid »

nemomarx wrote: post #29
integralid wrote: post #25

I'm against any kind of censorship, chat scanning and privacy violations. Nevertheless: >Telegram founder Pavel Durov warned that France risks societal collapse if it continues down a path of political censorship and regulatory overreach. Durov was arrested in France in August 2024 after being accused of failing to moderate his app to reduce criminality Telegram is the messenger of choice for cybercriminals (not sign…

I think the post office screening letters to be sure terrorists aren't sending them would also be pretty bad

It would. Maybe my analogy was flawed.

My point (which I probably explained badly) was that telegram ignores all abuse reports. As a company operating in the first world you can't really do that legally.

You probably don't want to die on the hill of defending telegram. If they really cared about privacy, they would push everything to e2e. Instead they absolutely know what people talk about. Even if they're 100% pure hearted and really never take a peek, three letter agencies from all over the world are probably less honorable.

Re: EU proposal to scan all private messages gains momentum

#177

Post by integralid »

rendaw wrote: post #42
integralid wrote: post #25

I'm against any kind of censorship, chat scanning and privacy violations. Nevertheless: >Telegram founder Pavel Durov warned that France risks societal collapse if it continues down a path of political censorship and regulatory overreach. Durov was arrested in France in August 2024 after being accused of failing to moderate his app to reduce criminality Telegram is the messenger of choice for cybercriminals (not sign…

If it's really illegal stuff, why can't the groups be taken down via legal channels? Providers shouldn't be in charge of doing extra-due-process punishment.

>why can't the groups be taken down via legal channels

I literally don't know, that's my whole point. Telegram ignores abuse reports and law enforcement and that's why CEO got into trouble.

I never suggested spying on telegram users or extrajudicial powers, and i abhor the idea.

Re: EU proposal to scan all private messages gains momentum

#178

Post by integralid »

aaomidi wrote: post #28
integralid wrote: post #25

I'm against any kind of censorship, chat scanning and privacy violations. Nevertheless: >Telegram founder Pavel Durov warned that France risks societal collapse if it continues down a path of political censorship and regulatory overreach. Durov was arrested in France in August 2024 after being accused of failing to moderate his app to reduce criminality Telegram is the messenger of choice for cybercriminals (not sign…

Then ban the app.

I don't want to ban a chat app loved by many people, and I think that would be an overreaction. I just want them to actually respect abuse reports and the letter of the law.

Re: EU proposal to scan all private messages gains momentum

#179

Post by throwaway89201 »

On a slightly different subject (and it seems to be massively under reported): the European Parliament has already voted in favor of a law that mandates age verification for pornography with a one year prison sentence. It was included at the last minute as an amendment into this bill [1]. Search for "Amendment 186".

The full accepted amendment reads: "Disseminating pornographic content online without putting in place robust and effective age verification tools to effectively prevent children from accessing pornographic content online shall be punishable by a maximum term of imprisonment of at least 1 year."

[1] https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/TA-10-2025-011...

Re: EU proposal to scan all private messages gains momentum

#180

Post by hsuduebc2 »

wqaatwt wrote: post #140
hsuduebc2 wrote: post #46

Even though it goes against all my beliefs and values, I still see it primarily as a desperate attempt to gain at least some means of control over encrypted tools — which are, in fact, constantly used for criminal activity. The endlessly recycled “think of the children” argument is laughably pathetic. I don't understand why they don't present the real and much more reasonable justifications — such as terrorism in Eur…

Not incompetent criminals will just workaround, there is no way to avoid that besides 1984 style universal surveillance.

Exactly. Only outcome is more surveillance for others with zero effect on the problem itself.
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