Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA

open-web-advocacy.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

171–180 of 394 posts

Re: Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA

#171

Post by swores »

nikanj wrote: post #162
semiquaver wrote: post #153

> Safari is the highest margin product Apple has ever made, accounts for 14-16% of Apple’s annual operating profit Does anyone know what this means? Safari is built in to the OS, how exactly would you measure its margin? Are they just talking about the Google search deal?

Safari has a minuscule team and brings in the Google money

I think it's a bit misleading to call Safari a "high margin product" based on that logic, considering they could have made even more profit by not making it at all and just charge Google the exact same money to let them ship Chrome as the default iOS browser... (I mean an actual Chrome browser, not the Chrome skin of a WebKit browser that Google currently has to settle for.)

I'm not saying I'd prefer that scenario, just that it would have been a feasible choice for Apple and as such their Safari costs are actually profit losing not profit generating (other than potentially indirectly, if Apple is correct that limiting devices to their own browser engine improves the product and therefore aids device sales, but I don't think anyone would argue that's significant enough to call it their biggest profit driver).

Re: Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA

#172

Post by bookofjoe »

ThatMedicIsASpy wrote: post #11
TheDong wrote: post #4

I agree with the point about non-EU web developers. As long as people in the US can't test their web app on "firefox for iOS" without first buying a plane ticket to the EU and getting an EU sim card, all eu-only browser engines on iOS will be second-class citizens. I think the next logical extension is that actually limiting general public use across the entire world makes apple less compliant with the DMA. Mozilla w…

What a load of BS. How can I test my website on safari without owning Apple hardware? I can't so I don't.

Go to an Apple store or use a friend's hardware.

Re: Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA

#173

Post by mort96 »

benoau wrote: post #165
semiquaver wrote: post #153

> Safari is the highest margin product Apple has ever made, accounts for 14-16% of Apple’s annual operating profit Does anyone know what this means? Safari is built in to the OS, how exactly would you measure its margin? Are they just talking about the Google search deal?

They're referring to the "Google Search Deal", where Google shares 36% of ad revenue with Apple in exchange for being default search provider across their devices, an amount approximately $20b/year for basically just not changing the default. Which was revealed in Google's antitrust trial, where the deal has been deemed illegal.

Interesting. So it doesn't have anything to do with the browser engine ban, since Apple presumably doesn't earn money from a Google search from Chrome on iOS regardless of whether it's powered by WebKit or Blink.

Re: Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA

#174

Post by mrkstu »

technimad wrote: post #148
pxeger1 wrote: post #113

Relatedly, all Google apps (e.g. Maps) on iOS try very hard to push Chrome on you (even though iOS Chrome still has to use WebKit). When you click an external link, they present you the options of Chrome, Google (the search app), or Safari. This happens even if you don't have Chrome/Google installed, so they take you to the App Store instead of opening the webpage. If you choose Safari, it still doesn't open Safari,…

As a user I don’t get why Apple allows this user hostile behavior in an app they distribute in their app store.The platform has alternatives. iOS has a sharing sheet. iOS has a default browser setting (in EU).

You have to download Google Maps in the first place- my (older teen and adult) kids don’t even have an entry point for Google, they just use Apple’s built in apps + ChatGPT.

Re: Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA

#175

Post by JustExAWS »

mtomweb wrote: post #154
scarface_74 wrote: post #106

Two of the arguments just aren’t true. If you use another browser today even if it does use Apple’s engine, Apple’s not making search revenue from Google. The second point is that it came out in the Epic trial that 90% of App Store revenue comes from games and in app purchasing. Those apps are not going to the web. Third, if the only thing stopping great web apps is Apple, why aren’t their popular web apps for Androi…

1. If you use either "Safari" or "Chrome" on iOS, then Apple gets paid. That's 97% of the market on iOS. 2. Many of those games could be rewritten in WebGPU/WebGL2.. if it saved them 30% appstore tax, and the install process was decent and they had frictionless payments, they'd move. 3. Because Apple is the primary target market, and if you've already built native for iOS, what's the advantage of doing web for Androi…

That’s not true. Apple only gets paid for search going through Safari to Google.

If the game makers are do interested in saving the 30% tax, then why aren’t they making the games web based for Android? Gabe makers want the easy in app purchases and getting kids who while they don’t have credit cards on their phones, do have access to buy content in apps with parental controls.

How is iOS the primary market when 70% of mobile phones both worldwide and in the EU are on Android?

If they already have a web app for PCs, then why do they need to make an Android app too if web apps are so great on Android?

And if the web makes such a good platform for games, then why aren’t there more great games on the web that would run on PCs and Android unmodified?

Re: Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA

#176

Post by poisonborz »

op00to wrote: post #155
stockresearcher wrote: post #103

Even if you get past the roadblocks Apple has put in place, it’s not beer and skittles for browser makers in the EU. The CRA, which is now in effect, lists browsers as class I important products. Technical documentation, design documentation, user documentation, security conformance testing, a declared support period at the time of download, software bill of materials, the legal obligation to respond to and make all…

Holy cow, they’re serious: Penalties: • Up to €15 million or 2.5 % of global turnover for essential requirement failures. • €10 million or 2 % turnover for other obligations. • €5 million or 1 % turnover for misleading or incomplete documents On the one hand, these are important standards. On the other, it seems impossible for small shops to adhere to a lot of this.

Watch them not enforce this at all whenever they need something from the US, like how they delayed (and afaik still do) heavy Google/Meta/Apple fines for DMA. Laws don't matter, only enforcement. See TikTok ban.

Re: Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA

#177

Post by hshdhdhj4444 »

mort96 wrote: post #173
benoau wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're referring to the "Google Search Deal", where Google shares 36% of ad revenue with Apple in exchange for being default search provider across their devices, an amount approximately $20b/year for basically just not changing the default. Which was revealed in Google's antitrust trial, where the deal has been deemed illegal.

Interesting. So it doesn't have anything to do with the browser engine ban, since Apple presumably doesn't earn money from a Google search from Chrome on iOS regardless of whether it's powered by WebKit or Blink.

It does have a lot to do with the browser engine ban.

It means that if someone else comes up with a much better browser engine than Safari’s, iPhone users cannot use it so Safari remains competitive even though it may have a browser engine that’s lacking, since others are forced to use Safari’s browser engine and not their much better engine.

Re: Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA

#178

Post by mrkstu »

lillecarl wrote: post #120
sealeck wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it is clear that Apple only moves exactly as far as the EU forces it to I don't think this is a secret - Apple publicly opposes these kinds of laws. > And within the limits the law allows, they're doing everything they can to make it tedious and difficult to actually get alternative apps stores or browser engines on their OS. Sure, it's unclear what the EU can do to oppose this though. If they push too far they ris…

The EU does not risk invoking the "wrath" of the "much more powerful" US government by telling Apple to stop abusing it's customers, market and developers. You have progressive states passing similar legislation as the EU within the US so I bet they'll be getting the firm hand first if anything.

If states get too onerous the Feds will pass similar, very much less restrictive legislation, which will have the effect of nullifying state legislation due to federal supremacy.

Re: Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA

#179

Post by simondotau »

windward wrote: post #8
selckin wrote: post #6

This Apple policy is the only thing stopping chrome from having a full monopoly, and we should be careful trying to remove it

Monopolies are made illegal because they limit consumer choice and the role of competition in the free market, distorting incentives. The status quo has all of the problems of a monopoly. Doing this or not doing this won't change that. But it will remove another barrier to consumers being able to do what they want.

I care about the web remaining a truly open platform based on standards rather than the whims of a singular software project. What matters is browser diversity, even if it's at the expense of browser choice. Because without healthy browser diversity, the web might as well be renamed the Chrome Protocol and you lose browser choice anyway.

Apple, with their iOS browser lock-in, is the greatest gift ever to the open web.

Re: Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA

#180

Post by hshdhdhj4444 »

gjsman-1000 wrote: post #164
FirmwareBurner wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hear me out, I have a tinfoil hat theory. What if, those requirements weren't put to help small shops making a new browser, but to guarantee the big shops who already have a browser are getting fined? * hits bong *

And this is why the EU's GDP versus the US is now only 65% and shrinking. The regulations are about beating US companies into compliance, sometimes with righteous motives; but there's no forethought on how a domestic EU startup might be able to comply, or how a startup would convince investors to take the gamble.

Yeah, because EU software companies were totally destroying the American software industry before the last decade…

The EU’s relatively shrinking GDP has much more to do with their populations growing older and their population size stabilizing, and the relatively tiny amount of migration, than EU digital laws, most of which have been replicated throughout the world.

Additionally, the EU has always had weak financial markets, and the only strong financial center, the city of London, quit the EU and both the EU and the city of London have suffered because of that, with a whole bunch of LSE listed companies moving to New York (including possibly Shell, which would be devastating for London as a financial center).

Post reply on HN