Local-first software (2019) • Hacker News Board

Re: Local-first software (2019)

#171

Post by bigfatkitten » Sat, Jul 05, 2025, 11:34 PM UTC

satvikpendem wrote: post #140

echelon wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm sick of everyone trying to come up with a use case to get all my data in everyone's cloud so I have to pay a subscription fee to just make things work. AI photo and video generation is impractical to run locally. ComfyUI and Flux exist, but they serve a tiny sliver of the market with very expensive gamer GPUs. And if you wanted to cater to that market, you'd have to support dozens of different SKUs and deal wit…

But who said anything about AI? Lots of local-first apps have nor need any AI whatsoever. And by the way, Topaz Labs has good offerings for editing photos and videos with AI that run locally, works great for many use cases (although it's not fully generative like Veo etc, more like upscaling and denoising, which does use generative AI but not like the former).

Most cloud apps have no need for AI either, but companies are pushing it anyway for bullshit marketing reasons, similar to what they did with blockchain a decade ago.

Re: Local-first software (2019)

#172

Post by sirjaz » Sat, Jul 05, 2025, 11:36 PM UTC

GMoromisato wrote: post #31

Habgdnv wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Currently there are laws but not for hosting. Look at the contract of Steam for example or Ubisoft, or anything else - Q: What happens to your game collection if we shut down our servers? A: You own nothing and lose everything, GG! It is like that we must protect users privacy from greedy websites so we will make the bad ones spell out that they use cookies to spy on users - and the result is what we have now with th…

I agree with you! And your point about cookie banners underlines that we can't just rely on regulation (because companies are so good are subverting or outright lobbying their way out of them). Just as with the open source movement, there needs to be a business model (and don't forget that OSS is a business model, not a technology) that competes with the old way of doing things. Getting that new business model to wor…

I've found people want local software and access. This is a major reason why people like mobile more now than desktops outside of the obvious of having it in their pocket. A mobile app gives you more of a private feel than going to website and entering your info. In addition to an extent it is kept local first, due to sync issues.

Re: Local-first software (2019)

#173

Post by WD-42 » Sat, Jul 05, 2025, 11:39 PM UTC

maxhille wrote: post #92

DataDaoDe wrote: post #29

Yes a thousand percent! I'm working on this too. I'm sick of everyone trying to come up with a use case to get all my data in everyone's cloud so I have to pay a subscription fee to just make things work. I'm working on a fitness tracking app right now that will use the sublime model - just buy it, get updates for X years, sync with all your devices and use it forever. If you want updates after X years buy the newest…

How do you plan to do the syncing without some sort of cloud infrastructure?

Check out Aardvark (renamed to reflection) it's a collaborative note-taking app from the GNOME folks. I think the idea isn't to completely remove cloud infrastructure, but to at least make it optional and/or provide alternatives. For example, this note app works via P2P. blogs.gnome.org/tbernard/2025/06/30/aardvark-summer-2025-update/

Re: Local-first software (2019)

#174

Post by HappMacDonald » Sat, Jul 05, 2025, 11:40 PM UTC

gffrd wrote: post #123

danjl wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct. SaaS is a business model, not a technical concept. But the real problem is that there is no equivalent business model for selling local first software. Traditional desktop apps were single purchase items. Local first is not because you just navigate to a website in your browser and blammo you get the software. What we need is a way to make money off of local first software.

> there is no equivalent business model for selling local first software. Sure there is: “$500 upfront or $21/mo for 24 months *” * if you don’t complete you 24 payments, we freeze your license.

So Local-first DRM then?

Re: Local-first software (2019)

#175

Post by bigfatkitten » Sat, Jul 05, 2025, 11:43 PM UTC

GMoromisato wrote: post #45

WarOnPrivacy wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> End-of-life contracts: cloud-vendors should contractually spell out what happens if they can't afford to keep the servers running. I'm trying to imagine how this would be enforced when a company shutters and it's principals walk away.

It's a good question--I am not a lawyer. But that's the point of contracts, right? When a company shuts down, the contracts become part of the liabilities. E.g., if the contract says "you must pay each customer $1000 if we shut down" then the customers become creditors in a bankruptcy proceeding. It doesn't guarantee that they get all (or any) money, but their interests are negotiated by the bankruptcy judge. Similar…

No, not at all.

The entire point of Chapter 11 (and similar bankruptcy legislation internationally) is to allow companies to get out of contracts, so that they can restructure the business to hopefully continue on as a going concern.

Re: Local-first software (2019)

#176

Post by gerdesj » Sat, Jul 05, 2025, 11:45 PM UTC

aspenmayer wrote: post #154

MichaelOldfield wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good point. And 1-2 typos and common grammar mistakes.

It’s also important to remember to accidentally a word here and there!

... invent is the word you seem to have missed out. Hallucinations present rather than hide.

A person will misspell a word or put in some sort of rubbish. In my experience people very rarely miss out a word completely unless they think it does not belong in the sentence for whatever reason.

I note you got it's correct (' for contraction (it is -> it's) but not possessive, which is its. Normally, possession is indicated with 's)

You also smashed it with a suitable choice of capital letters and finished with an exclamatory flourish!

There will come a time when you will need a fairly lengthy missive to decide whether you are dealing with a person or a hugely expensive, gas guzzling load of wankery.

Today is not that time.

Re: Local-first software (2019)

#177

Post by bigfatkitten » Sat, Jul 05, 2025, 11:46 PM UTC

prmoustache wrote: post #52

GMoromisato wrote: post #24

Personally, I disagree with this approach. This is trying to solve a business problem (I can't trust cloud-providers) with a technical trade-off (avoid centralized architecture). The problems with closed-source software (lack of control, lack of reliability) were solved with a new business model: open source development, which came with new licenses and new ways of getting revenue (maintenance contracts instead of li…

> Personally, I disagree with this approach. This is trying to solve a business problem (I can't trust cloud-providers) It is not only a business problem. I stay away from cloud based services not only because of subscription model, but also because I want my data to be safe. When you send data to a cloud service, and that data is not encrypted locally before being sent to the cloud (a rare feature), it is not a ques…

I have spent the last decade or so working in digital forensics and incident response for a series of well-known SaaS companies.

The experience has made me a big fan of self hosting.

Re: Local-first software (2019)

#178

Post by sirjaz » Sat, Jul 05, 2025, 11:46 PM UTC

2color wrote: post #80

It's a very exciting moment for this movement. A lot of the research and tech for local-first is nearing the point that it's mature, efficient, and packaged into well designed APIs. Moreover, local-first —at least in theory— enables less infrastructure, which could reignite new indie open source software with less vendor lock-in. However, despite all my excitement about embracing these ideas in the pursuit of better…

We need to get back to apps rather than webapps. The hardware compatibility issues of the past are basically no longer here, and there are three major OS types two of which can use each other's apps.

Re: Local-first software (2019)

#179

Post by HappMacDonald » Sat, Jul 05, 2025, 11:50 PM UTC

prmoustache wrote: post #52

GMoromisato wrote: post #24

Personally, I disagree with this approach. This is trying to solve a business problem (I can't trust cloud-providers) with a technical trade-off (avoid centralized architecture). The problems with closed-source software (lack of control, lack of reliability) were solved with a new business model: open source development, which came with new licenses and new ways of getting revenue (maintenance contracts instead of li…

> Personally, I disagree with this approach. This is trying to solve a business problem (I can't trust cloud-providers) It is not only a business problem. I stay away from cloud based services not only because of subscription model, but also because I want my data to be safe. When you send data to a cloud service, and that data is not encrypted locally before being sent to the cloud (a rare feature), it is not a ques…

"Trust about whether or not another company will maintain confidentiality" still sounds like a business problem to me (or at least one valid way of perceiving the problem)

And the biggest advantage I see of this perspective over the "technical problem" perspective is that assigning responsibility completely covers the problem space, while "hope that some clever math formula can magic the problem away" does not.

Re: Local-first software (2019)

#180

Post by gerdesj » Sat, Jul 05, 2025, 11:53 PM UTC

Nextcloud with a few addons - all open source - gets you feature parity with all of that lot.

NC itself gets you file sync and webdav etc. An add on gets you the webby version of LibreOffice. You can bolt on AI addons to classify and tag your images/photos and with a bit more effort, your docs too.

It's properly local first.