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AV1@Scale: Film Grain Synthesis, The Awakening

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Re: AV1@Scale: Film Grain Synthesis, The Awakening

#171

Post by account42 »

kridsdale1 wrote: post #83
rainworld wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet here we are: DNR -> fancy grain -> DNR -> basic, approximated grain. Because noise doesn’t compress. And you get compression artifacts even in Blu-ray releases. What’s the point of applying fancy grain when what a lot viewers end up seeing is an ugly smudge?

Because it looks amazing in the editing studio. Just like the sound mix is incredible on the Atmos monitors in the sound mixing room, even though the home viewers have a soundbar at best and tiny stereo speakers in a flat panel typically. The dynamics and dialog channel will be fucked. But that’s user error.

Yeah I always roll my eyes when people get so mad about compressed (as in reduced dynamic range) audio. I just want to watch / listen to stuff without annoying my neighbors and don't particularly care whether or not the volume of gunshots is realistic.

Re: AV1@Scale: Film Grain Synthesis, The Awakening

#172

Post by account42 »

wbl wrote: post #86
kridsdale1 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it looks amazing in the editing studio. Just like the sound mix is incredible on the Atmos monitors in the sound mixing room, even though the home viewers have a soundbar at best and tiny stereo speakers in a flat panel typically. The dynamics and dialog channel will be fucked. But that’s user error.

Movies are best enjoyed in the theater.

What, cramped into a room with tons of other people who can't help themselves from making noise or moving in front of you while you only have limited and overpriced snack options. As nice as a big screen and professional sound equipment is the downsides make the experience strictly worse than a big OLED + half decent soundbar.

Re: AV1@Scale: Film Grain Synthesis, The Awakening

#173

Post by account42 »

NoMoreNicksLeft wrote: post #42
rainworld wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These days, when we see noise/grain in an end product it has likely been added in post-production. So, ideally, studios would provide distributors with a noiseless source plus grain synthesis parameters. Bonus: many viewers would welcome an option to turn it off.

I'll keep the film grain, I just want to be able to turn off laugh tracks.

Why not just watch things where the creators don't feel they need to add laugh tracks in order to keep the audience engaged in the first place.

Re: AV1@Scale: Film Grain Synthesis, The Awakening

#174

Post by account42 »

dperfect wrote: post #50

To the comments hating on grain: everything naturally has some amount of noise or grain - even the best digital sensors. Heck, even your eyes do. It's useful beyond just aesthetics. It tends to increase perceived sharpness and hides flaws like color banding and compression artifacts. That's not to say that all noise and grain is good . It can be unavoidable, due to inferior technology, or a result of poor creative ch…

Grain in state of the art digital sensors is nothing compared to what is added to the average movie.

Re: AV1@Scale: Film Grain Synthesis, The Awakening

#175

Post by [deleted] »

jedbrooke wrote: post #2

> This grain, formed from tiny particles during the film’s development, is more than just a visual effect. It plays a key role in storytelling by enhancing the film’s depth and contributing to its realism. I never understood the “grain = realism” thing. my real eyes don’t have grain. I do appreciate the role of grain as an artistic tool though, so this is still cool tech

[deleted]

Re: AV1@Scale: Film Grain Synthesis, The Awakening

#176

Post by account42 »

jedbrooke wrote: post #2

> This grain, formed from tiny particles during the film’s development, is more than just a visual effect. It plays a key role in storytelling by enhancing the film’s depth and contributing to its realism. I never understood the “grain = realism” thing. my real eyes don’t have grain. I do appreciate the role of grain as an artistic tool though, so this is still cool tech

Your eyes have lots of grain in low light conditions.

Re: AV1@Scale: Film Grain Synthesis, The Awakening

#177

Post by FieryTransition »

crazygringo wrote: post #96

This fails to acknowledge that synthesized noise can lack the detail and information in the original noise . When you watch a high-quality encode that includes the actual noise, there is a startling increase in resolution from seeing a still to seeing the video. The noise is effectively dancing over a signal, and at 24 fps the signal is still perfectly clear behind it. Whereas if you lossily encode a still that disca…

I love this concept/principle, one similar example I often bring up when I talk about machine learning, is comparing how a human would analyse night footage from a camera, and how a ML algorithm can pick up things no human would think about, even artifacts from the sensors which can be used as features. Noise is rarely ever just noise.

Re: AV1@Scale: Film Grain Synthesis, The Awakening

#178

Post by account42 »

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #101
crazygringo wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> my real eyes don’t have grain. They definitely do at night when it's dark out. There's a kind of "sparkling" or "static" that comes in faint light. Fortunately, our eyes have way better sensitivity than cameras. But the "realism" just comes from how it was captured using the technology of the day. It's no different from phonograph hiss or the way a CRT signal blurs. The idea is to be "real" to the technology that t…

Your Van Gogh analogy makes sense for old movies. It doesn't quite explain why we're still adding grain to new movies, except for those few which are purposefully evoking older movies.

Same reason why movies still use extremely low frame rates - because people have gotten used to that effect.

It doesn't help that a lot of great movies are older thus those limitations of older technology become subconsciously associated with quality.

Re: AV1@Scale: Film Grain Synthesis, The Awakening

#179

Post by Pesthuf »

>This grain, formed from tiny particles during the film’s development, is more than just a visual effect. It plays a key role in storytelling by enhancing the film’s depth and contributing to its realism

That's one hell of an exaggeration. But even if that was true, I don't see how removing it, then adding fake on in would help. That entire sentence really has a "written by ChatGPT" smell. >It's not just X. It's Y".

Re: AV1@Scale: Film Grain Synthesis, The Awakening

#180

Post by account42 »

01HNNWZ0MV43FF wrote: post #16
tiluha wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mine do, at least when it's very dark

Yeah I've had visual snow, I think only when I'm tired, stood up too fast, dehydrated, etc. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_snow_syndrome

It's not even that, just under low light conditions (after you let your eyes adjust to see anything at all) everyone will see quite a bit of noise.
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