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Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

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Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#171

Post by alexjplant »

Workaccount2 wrote: post #39

I don't think any big tech company has ever done anything as evil and predatory as Apple walling off iMessage, giving the impression that Apple phones were high technology, and interacting with peasant androids is what made group chats fragment and pictures and videos look like trash. Few things are more enraging than people being left out of chats with friends and family because they didn't bend over for Apple. Even…

> Even worse being a teenager and having to endure social shaming for it. It wasn't until the EU signaled it was going to bring down then axe that Apple capitulated to RCS.

Regardless of the merits of Apple's actions as regards technical interoperability I feel compelled to point out that this in particular is a cultural problem, not technical malfeasance. RCS users still appear as green bubbles and even if the lack of functionality has been remedied the stigma has not. People at my lunch table 20 years ago were drawing artificial distinctions between "MP3s" (portable DAPs) and iPods because the latter were expensive luxury products and the former were not. The same thing is at work here because owning an iPhone is a proxy for one's socioeconomic stratum. I own an iPhone and as soon as an Android user appears in an iMessage group chat some joker immediately makes a green bubble quip - no degraded picture message required.

People that define themselves by conspicuous consumption don't care about interoperability. They care about brand recognition.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#172

Post by lurking_swe »

bitpush wrote: post #49
FredPret wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- You don't need to have an iPhone - You agree to the letter of the ToS when you click "I Agree" when you set up the iPhone, - You also already agree to the spirit of the App Store when you buy it. After all, it's not some big secret - You can get by with webapps for the most part anyway - You can buy an Android, a flip phone, or pull a power move and have no phone Buying an iPhone and then demanding that it has to w…

> Buying an iPhone and then demanding that it has to work Buying something used to mean something. If you're still beholden by company rules of a product you _bought_, you have been leasing/renting it. If I buy a house from a builder, and it came with a requirement that you can only use Amazon Ring cameras, or builder-approved groceries - you'd be pretty pissed.

i see you’ve never purchased a condo or lived within an HOA community.

Furthermore, in the US (and some other countries), you don’t _actually_ own a house or it’s land. you own the rights to that house (a deed) as long as you continue paying your property taxes. see what happens when you stop paying uncle sam… it’s kind of like a subscription lol.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#173

Post by ghusto »

_benton wrote: post #55

This is probably a controversial opinion but I actually use my iPhone because it's locked down with a curated app marketplace and secure payment system. I don't want alternative payment methods or app stores. So I find it distasteful that other companies are seeking to control Apple's product design through the legal system. They're essentially trying to make it impossible to purchase a product I want, which is more…

That's not how choice works.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#174

Post by mvdtnz »

_benton wrote: post #55

This is probably a controversial opinion but I actually use my iPhone because it's locked down with a curated app marketplace and secure payment system. I don't want alternative payment methods or app stores. So I find it distasteful that other companies are seeking to control Apple's product design through the legal system. They're essentially trying to make it impossible to purchase a product I want, which is more…

Controversial maybe, but we have to suffer through this exact same incredibly odd opinion in every thread that makes contact with this issue. No one is asking you to leave your walled garden.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#175

Post by _benton »

bitpush wrote: post #49
FredPret wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- You don't need to have an iPhone - You agree to the letter of the ToS when you click "I Agree" when you set up the iPhone, - You also already agree to the spirit of the App Store when you buy it. After all, it's not some big secret - You can get by with webapps for the most part anyway - You can buy an Android, a flip phone, or pull a power move and have no phone Buying an iPhone and then demanding that it has to w…

> Buying an iPhone and then demanding that it has to work Buying something used to mean something. If you're still beholden by company rules of a product you _bought_, you have been leasing/renting it. If I buy a house from a builder, and it came with a requirement that you can only use Amazon Ring cameras, or builder-approved groceries - you'd be pretty pissed.

That's not a valid analogy. There isn't a "requirement" that you only use vanilla Apple software on an iPhone. More accurate would be that the house is set up for ring cameras and the builder doesn't support implementing any other type of camera system.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#176

Post by ghusto »

_benton wrote: post #125
spogbiper wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if all you want is for your apps to come from Apple's store and your payments to go through Apple's system, you would simply continue to use only those options and allowing other people to have other options would not impact you. what you actually want is to force all developers to use Apple's distribution and payment systems, so that you can have every app and service from any provider delivered via your chosen mech…

Developers are not forced into using Apple's distribution and payment systems because there are a multitude of other competing devices (with a higher market share mind you) they can and do develop for. If users and developers prefer other systems they can simply use those.

Apple is not forced into doing business in Europe, because there are a multitude of other anticompetitive tolerant regions (much larger than Europe mind you) they can do business in.

If Apple prefers anticompetitive practices, it can simply only do business in those regions.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#177

Post by wavemode »

8fingerlouie wrote: post #169
wavemode wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Samsung is using their market position to stifle competitors, then by all means yes.

Explain stifle, or more specifically how Apple is doing that ? Anybody (possibly except Epic Games) can develop and publish on the App Store. There's a cost associated with it, which in Apples case is 30% (or whatever you negotiate apparently). If you play by the rules, you can keep doing that as long as you like. If you rent a shop in a shopping mall, there will be costs associated with that as well, and it's almost…

> Explain stifle, or more specifically how Apple is doing that ?

I wrote a comment about that here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44426128#44427725

> You may not like the price associated with it, which is what most of these complaints are about, the fact that Apple scoops up 30% of recurring subscriptions created through the App Store as well. People tend to forget that running your own infrastructure is also not free, especially when you need to handle refunds, legal matters and international compliance.

Simply having a link in my app to a page where someone pays through Stripe instead of through Apple Payments, costs nothing to Apple and creates no obligation for Apple to do anything.

> Sideloading is usually a very bad idea in this day and age.

Then don't do it. Who exactly is forcing you to?

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#178

Post by amazingman »

Workaccount2 wrote: post #39

I don't think any big tech company has ever done anything as evil and predatory as Apple walling off iMessage, giving the impression that Apple phones were high technology, and interacting with peasant androids is what made group chats fragment and pictures and videos look like trash. Few things are more enraging than people being left out of chats with friends and family because they didn't bend over for Apple. Even…

This reads like public affairs copy from Meta/Alphabet/et al looking to distract from the real, measurable harm produced against teens by social media and AI products that are either directly (Instagram) or indirectly (character ai) owned.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#179

Post by ghusto »

hbn wrote: post #151
McDyver wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not controversial, you can still have your walled garden as-is. The point of this is so that there is the possibility of escaping that walled garden, arguably welcoming more users into the ecosystem. Nothing would change for you. Just like android users can keep using all things Google, they have the possibility of installing apps from other sources.

> Nothing would change for you. If my apps are changing, yes it is changing for me. Right now I can manage all of my app subscriptions from the Subscriptions screen in the Settings app of my devices. If they open up to other payment methods, my subscriptions are no longer centralized, I have to give my credit card information to more parties of variable trustworthiness, I have to worry about subscription renewal poli…

It's really not as scary as you think it is.

Whenever I want a subscription I want inside an app, I actually take the effort to go to their website and buy it from them directly, because it's cheaper (not that they're allowed to tell me this in their app though).

When I want to stop paying for the subscription, I cancel it and I'm done. At least in the EU, this is always an easy thing to do.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#180

Post by _benton »

ghusto wrote: post #176
_benton wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Developers are not forced into using Apple's distribution and payment systems because there are a multitude of other competing devices (with a higher market share mind you) they can and do develop for. If users and developers prefer other systems they can simply use those.

Apple is not forced into doing business in Europe, because there are a multitude of other anticompetitive tolerant regions (much larger than Europe mind you) they can do business in. If Apple prefers anticompetitive practices, it can simply only do business in those regions.

I'm curious what becomes the breaking point for them to pull out of a region. Obviously it's about profit but at what point (if any) does it make profitable sense for them to leave?
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