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The Effect of Noise on Sleep

empirical.health

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Re: The Effect of Noise on Sleep

#171

Post by schiffern »

Anechoic wrote: post #162
schiffern wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>age-related deafness Interestingly, there's been some suggestion that hearing loss is not inevitable with age, but is mostly just the accumulation of noise-related hearing loss in a loud industrial society. https://canadianaudiologist.ca/a-new-perspective-on-chronic-... https://www.icben.org/2017/ICBEN%202017%20Papers/SubjectArea... https://www.nature.com/articles/s41370-024-00660-3 I think partly the issue is that…

I've tried searching the literature to find out whether this is either 1)wrong, or 2)generally known within the fields of audiology and occupational hygiene, but so far I've come up empty. FWIW, I've also heard the same, but don't remember where off the top of my head. It's at least potentially true, but the conventional wisdom among acousticians/noise control engineering is that age-related hearing loss is mostly to…

Oh, I meant about the wrong order-of-operations problem with decibels, which I have never seen anyone talk about. If you've heard of it please let me know.

The links discuss the evidence that hearing loss isn't inevitable with age, including examples of pre-industrial societies with quiet environments that when tested showed no hearing degradation with age.

The controversy seems to be mostly about how much of that effect was caused by good diet vs lack of exposure to loud sounds. I tend to think both are needed to be fully protective, eg to take an extreme example alcohol is known to cause damage to hearing cells even without exposure to loud sounds.

I expect, with apologies to Tolstoy, "All dysfunctional hearing is different, whereas all healthy hearing is the same."

Re: The Effect of Noise on Sleep

#172

Post by tomn »

sidewndr46 wrote: post #64
arp242 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Audible for well over a mile in normal conditions That doesn't strike me as a feature. Also a solved problem: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rwJ5NCf1Vw Tesco delivery trucks have them here in Ireland; it's pretty good stuff. Still quite loud/noticeable when you're up close, while at the same time not being completely obnoxious to everyone in a kilometre radius.

They have to be loud enough to be heard through hearing protection. The amplitude is a feature. It's a "solved problem" in the sense that nuclear energy is a solved problem. There's no mandate to actually see widespread roll out of anything that may be a better solution. There's a construction site near me at present. There is always 1 machine in reverse, at all times. The utility of having a backup beeper or any noi…

> They have to be loud enough to be heard through hearing protection.

It's kind of a nit-pick, but this is not really true.

Very approximately, you will perceive a sound if it is above your threshold of hearing, and also not masked by other sounds.

If you're wearing the best ear defenders which attenuate all sounds by about 30dB, and you assume your threshold of hearing is 10dBSPL (conservative), any sound above 40dBSPL is above the threshold of hearing. That's the level of a quiet conversation.

And because your ear defenders attenuate all sounds, masking is not really affected -- the sounds which would be masking the reversing beepers are also quieter.

There are nuances of course (hearing damage, and all the complicated effects that wearing ear defenders cause), but none of them are to the point that loud reversing noises are required because of hearing protection -- they are required to be heard over all the other loud noises on a construction site.

> The utility of having a backup beeper or any noise making device on that site is thus zero.

The inverse square law says otherwise; on site the distances will be much more apparent.

Re: The Effect of Noise on Sleep

#173

Post by tomn »

sidewndr46 wrote: post #158
bumby wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The utility of having a backup beeper or any noise making device on that site is thus zero. This strikes me as an odd take, maybe from someone who has never worked on a construction site. Our auditory sense is more than just a binary “present/not present” detection. We can sense distance and direction. Just because there is a backup beeper somewhere on site does not mean there is no value to any other auditory sign…

You just believe you can sense the direction of loud noises in urban environments. Our nervous system has no "404 not found" for positional awareness. Even after severe head trauma, you have a sense of position for everything. It's so wrong as to be useless, but you have it. Ask anyone who's been at a shooting in a city. Everyone gives a different answer for where the shooter was at. It's such a severe issue the US A…

Bullets are a bad example because they have multiple properties which makes them much harder to localise than many other sounds.

I'm pretty sure most people can localise a vehicle emitting broadband noise (engine or white reversing sound) in the conditions that matter.

Re: The Effect of Noise on Sleep

#174

Post by [deleted] »

willsmith72 wrote: post #170
bumby wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> smaller impact than expected Yes, it’s about both effect size and uncertainty. That’s science. But your original post also brought policy into play. Unless you actually know that uncertainty, effect size, and those costs (including opportunity costs), you’re just making stuff up because “it just makes sense so it must be true.” That’s neither good science, nor good policy. Advocating for big policy changes (like ch…

and this is how societal progress slowly crawls to a halt.

[deleted]

Re: The Effect of Noise on Sleep

#175

Post by bumby »

willsmith72 wrote: post #170
bumby wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> smaller impact than expected Yes, it’s about both effect size and uncertainty. That’s science. But your original post also brought policy into play. Unless you actually know that uncertainty, effect size, and those costs (including opportunity costs), you’re just making stuff up because “it just makes sense so it must be true.” That’s neither good science, nor good policy. Advocating for big policy changes (like ch…

and this is how societal progress slowly crawls to a halt.

Moving fast and breaking things has a place. It’s just an error to think it applies to everything. There’s a reason why it’s usually relegated to relatively low-risk applications. I doubt you’d advocate an avionics engineer to take the same attitude.

Re: The Effect of Noise on Sleep

#176

Post by todotask2 »

lurking_swe wrote: post #119
todotask2 wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My mum hears it too, but the local authorities simply claimed they couldn't hear anything during that brief moment. They’d have to stay overnight to really hear and feel it — inside a room, not just in a public space. It even vibrate my eardrum like I'm sitting on an F16 pilot seat. I don't hear it in other districts. I wish there were an expert or researcher interested in these areas: residential buildings, shops, p…

i’d try getting this in front of a journalist or news station. They may be more excited to investigate “weird” claims like this one. Sorry to hear about your situation.

I tried by emailing to them and got no respond.

Re: The Effect of Noise on Sleep

#177

Post by todotask2 »

Anechoic wrote: post #163
todotask2 wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My mum hears it too, but the local authorities simply claimed they couldn't hear anything during that brief moment. They’d have to stay overnight to really hear and feel it — inside a room, not just in a public space. It even vibrate my eardrum like I'm sitting on an F16 pilot seat. I don't hear it in other districts. I wish there were an expert or researcher interested in these areas: residential buildings, shops, p…

I wish there were an expert or researcher interested in these areas: residential buildings, shops, parks, churches, and schools. You mean an expert in acoustics related to those areas? There are lots of experts and researchers. Take a look at the Acoustical Society of America, the Institute of Noise Control Engineering, and Council for Accreditation in Occupational Hearing Conservation for starters. Penn State, Unive…

Oh, but I'm in Singapore.

Re: The Effect of Noise on Sleep

#179

Post by ilvez »

serpix wrote: post #143
4b11b4 wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I may suggest custom ear buds. Best $200 you'll spend. The original method is a wax form, but now there is a 3D scanning tool to map the shape of your ear.

2 euro silicone ear plugs from Aliexpress easily beat the custom ear plugs I had.

I have the same experience. Custom ones literally made my ears ache. Probably the harder material. Note they were made out of 3D scan of my ears..

Currently using Hansaplast Lärmstopp.

Re: The Effect of Noise on Sleep

#180

Post by bschwindHN »

timeattack wrote: post #102
mmh0000 wrote: post #67

I’ve spent years “fixing” my sleep. Things I recommend: * a sleep tracker. I love AutoSleep - https://apps.apple.com/us/app/autosleep-track-sleep-on-watch... * Any kind of white noise. I use an air purifier at home, and a little pocket size white noise machine when I travel. * find and eliminate any noises in your home. Computers, fridges, squeaky doors, etc. * find and eliminate any lights. Especially stupid power a…

Any advice on how to eliminate noisy neighbours that would randomly drop their shit at random intervals in the middle of night and let their child to stomp around every late evening?

I used to live in a wooden construction apartment, with neighbors above me. They themselves stomped a lot, both late at night and early in the morning, somehow.

Then they had a kid, which grew up and of course would run around the house at any hour. I was getting terrible sleep and it was driving me crazy.

All I could really do was move, and I made sure the next building was reinforced concrete, and that I would be on the top floor. The unit also ended up being on one end so only one wall shared with a neighbor.

It was instant relief and absolutely worth the move. It sucks though because obviously not everyone can live on the top floor of a building. If you're a heavy sleeper then I guess this is less of a problem, so I hope we have enough heavy sleepers in society so there's less competition for top floors. Probably wishful thinking though because the top floor is desired for other reasons unrelated to sleep.

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