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Germany and Italy pressed to bring $245B of gold home from US

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Re: Germany and Italy pressed to bring $245B of gold home from US

#171

Post by AnimalMuppet »

cantor_S_drug wrote: post #88
kasey_junk wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They do. Countries frequently store gold with trading partners or allies. Germany for instance has extensive foreign gold reserves.

But then the next question is why aren't those used as settlements mechanism?

Because international settlement is huge - something like a trillion dollars a day. (Or maybe that's just currency exchange, which might contain speculation in addition to settlement? Or is that a false distinction?)

Anyway, moving that much gold would be slow, inconvenient, and a significant risk.

Re: Germany and Italy pressed to bring $245B of gold home from US

#172

Post by corford »

jxjnskkzxxhx wrote: post #90

The US has a history of pulling this kind of stuff on its allies. To mind comes pulling out of Breton Woods. To those not aware, at some point in the past the US told the world: the dollar is as good as gold, you can convert it at any time you want, pinky promise. Later: lol joking, I'm keeping the gold, enjoy your dollars. I wonder what it says about Europe that its leaders are still falling for these rugpulls. That…

If anyone's interested in some of the nitty gritty of this, can highly recommend "Three Days at Camp David: How a Secret Meeting in 1971 Transformed the Global Economy" (https://www.amazon.com/Three-Days-Camp-David-Transformed/dp/...)

Re: Germany and Italy pressed to bring $245B of gold home from US

#173

Post by Nifty3929 »

regularization wrote: post #163
Nifty3929 wrote: post #135

I think people greatly overestimate the importance of gold. Gold cannot feed your people, or win a war or cure a disease. And in a crisis likely won't be useful for buying things that do. Gold is maybe just a bit better than fiat currency. Even in terms of inflation, what would happen to the market value of gold (not in Dollar terms, but in terms of what it can buy) if the government decided to spend down $200B in go…

> And in a crisis likely won't be useful for buying things that do. In a crisis, the value of gold holds more than that of the Papiermark, or even the US dollar - I can buy only one egg for the two I could have bought five years ago. Gold is uniform, portable, divisible and durable - useful attributes in a crisis, and worth more than Confederate dollars. Gold is useful - for filling teeth, for electronic coating. It'…

If you think the value of gold has remained stable, that's only because you're only measuring it during times and places of stability. See how much bread your ounce of gold buys you when there's no bread to buy. In a real crisis, the value of gold drops to near zero, just like fiat money does. No hungry person cares about electronic coating.

The best you can say is that gold is tangible, portable and universal. So you can bring it with you (often in the form of jewelry) as you flee, and it will likely return to value in some other time/place.

Re: Germany and Italy pressed to bring $245B of gold home from US

#174

Post by cma »

Nifty3929 wrote: post #148
cma wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a regional crisis it will

How? This issue is never money - it's always availability and logistics. In a regional crisis, what would you do with the gold? Is there anything to buy from outside the region? If so, how would you get it in? And does gold really help here, or would the other countries give it to you or lend it to you anyway?

Sometimes you have one border blocked from one side, and another not blocked from the other. For instance when the UN split up Israel they gave the Isrealites connectivity to the Mediterrean and the sea, only country other than Egypt to span both and enormously valuable. Huge value loss to the Palestinians: Israel has even had plans for a canal.

Worth noting the UN partition plan was never actually adopted in a binding way.

Re: Germany and Italy pressed to bring $245B of gold home from US

#175

Post by hannob »

SuperShibe wrote: post #87

The Germans in this article all appear to be aligned to either BSW (populist far-left, pro-Russia, anti-US) or AfD (populist far-right, pro-Russia). BSW wasn't even elected into the parliament and AfD, while being part of the parliament, has virtually no power due to not being part of the government coalition and all other parties sharing an informal agreement to not pass legislations with the help of AfD. What I'm t…

> The Germans in this article all appear to be aligned to either BSW (populist far-left, pro-Russia, anti-US)

Picturing BSW as far-left, while not uncommon, strikes me always as very strange. While it's a bit unclear where to put them with their wild mixture of populism, the only reason they are by some seen as leftwing is because of the history of their founder. She was previously a member of the left party, but for many years, even while she still was a member of that party, has not held any views that could count as far-left.

The only reason some still put her in the far-left camp is that she was, looooong ago, a member of the communist platform in the PDS, the predecessor of the left party in Germany.

Re: Germany and Italy pressed to bring $245B of gold home from US

#176

Post by infecto »

bboygravity wrote: post #110
SuperShibe wrote: post #87

The Germans in this article all appear to be aligned to either BSW (populist far-left, pro-Russia, anti-US) or AfD (populist far-right, pro-Russia). BSW wasn't even elected into the parliament and AfD, while being part of the parliament, has virtually no power due to not being part of the government coalition and all other parties sharing an informal agreement to not pass legislations with the help of AfD. What I'm t…

That's all fine and dandy, but also IMO it's entirely possible that the US cannot deliver their gold if these countries (and/or others) wanted it back. Just look at what happened when Venezuela wanted their gold back. It took ages and that was a relatively tiny amount. It's extremely naive for many EU countries to still believe that they "have" "their" gold stored in the US. And even more naive to not try and get it…

It’s extremely naive to think the Federal Reserve has lent out the gold and it no longer exists. It’s up there with insider job 9/11 conspiracies.

Modern banking and finance, not just in the US, relies on fractional reserves. This is not a movie.

Re: Germany and Italy pressed to bring $245B of gold home from US

#177

Post by tartuffe78 »

Nifty3929 wrote: post #169
OtherShrezzing wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A huge pile of gold in a secure location allows a government to operate in exile essentially forever without creating substantial debts for the home nation. It's not just "Italy's gold", it's "Contemporary Italy's gold". Norway & the Netherlands moved their gold right before the Nazi invasions in the 40's, and were able to continue operating in exile as a result. Taiwan was established on the back of this tactic too,…

How? You cannot eat gold - and if you're in exile will anybody sell stuff to you?

Your allies who are fighting the Nazis/Communists/whoever will happily sell you anything you want.

Re: Germany and Italy pressed to bring $245B of gold home from US

#178

Post by ashoeafoot »

Nifty3929 wrote: post #135

I think people greatly overestimate the importance of gold. Gold cannot feed your people, or win a war or cure a disease. And in a crisis likely won't be useful for buying things that do. Gold is maybe just a bit better than fiat currency. Even in terms of inflation, what would happen to the market value of gold (not in Dollar terms, but in terms of what it can buy) if the government decided to spend down $200B in go…

Everytime it comes up this fruitless educational effort appears, indicating a persistent irrational value, decoupled from reality . Which makes gold valuable even in conflict zones where irrationality abounds..

Re: Germany and Italy pressed to bring $245B of gold home from US

#179

Post by wavemode »

Nifty3929 wrote: post #169
OtherShrezzing wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A huge pile of gold in a secure location allows a government to operate in exile essentially forever without creating substantial debts for the home nation. It's not just "Italy's gold", it's "Contemporary Italy's gold". Norway & the Netherlands moved their gold right before the Nazi invasions in the 40's, and were able to continue operating in exile as a result. Taiwan was established on the back of this tactic too,…

How? You cannot eat gold - and if you're in exile will anybody sell stuff to you?

> if you're in exile will anybody sell stuff to you?

If we support you and are at war with your occupier then why not?

Re: Germany and Italy pressed to bring $245B of gold home from US

#180

Post by pglevy »

ceejayoz wrote: post #81
reactordev wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering the US only has 8,000 tonnes of gold total, this is going to be interesting. I don’t think their gold is just sitting in a closet in manhattan.

https://www.newyorkfed.org/aboutthefed/goldvault.html > As of 2024, the vault housed approximately 507,000 gold bars, with a combined weight of 6,331 metric tons. The vault is able to support this weight because it rests on the bedrock of Manhattan Island, 80 feet below street level and 50 feet below sea level. > Following the verification process, the gold is moved to one of the vault’s 122 compartments, where each…

Thanks for the link! I wonder how this works. Is there just no practical impact of the "book value" being so far off the market price? Surely any exchange is done at the prevailing rates.

> The market value of a gold bar depends on its weight, purity level, and the prevailing market price for gold. Rather than market pricing which fluctuates daily, the New York Fed uses the United States official book value of $42.2222 per troy ounce for gold holdings.

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