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Framework Laptop 12 review

arstechnica.com

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Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#171

Post by femiagbabiaka »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #94
mhitza wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is it unreasonable to think Framework should be able to make a laptop competitive with the 5 years old MacBook Air M1? Kind of unreasonable. I mean which Intel or AMD cpu can be run fanless and perform well? On the topic of displays, my understanding is that they "kind of use what they can get". That's how there can be a 13 display with rounded corners in a straight edge case. What you're asking are the things I'm…

It isn't the chip which determines whether it's fanless. Basically every modern chip supports power capping and then the power cap is determined by how much heat the machine can dissipate. What that really determines is multi-thread performance. Fanless laptop that can dissipate the power of one core? No problem. Fanless laptop that can dissipate the power of all the cores? For that you have to lower the clock speed…

> The number of people who pick the second option given that trade off is so small that hardly anybody even bothers to offer it.

The number of manufacturers or the number of people? Apple was on the path to laptop irrelevancy before the M series, it doesn't seem clear to me at all that people don't care about noise and heat along with performance.

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#172

Post by username223 »

sixothree wrote: post #127
username223 wrote: post #55

I wish them the best, but if they can't compete with a MacBook Air on price despite Apple's huge profit margins, then maybe it's just not meant to be. People used to talk about paying the "Apple tax," but how many people are willing to pay the "Linux tax?" Mac OS is a similar Unix with the usual tools, and you can rent a VPS if you need Linux on an x86 sometimes. An MBA with an M4 will last 5+ years with a battery sw…

$1500 for 48 GB and 2 TB? Am I missing something here?

Yes, Apple screws you on SSDs, so that 2 TB adds a lot. If you need it, and don't want an external SSD (2 TB costs $150), the Framework is cheaper with a slower CPU. Maxing internal storage on a Mac laptop is a bad idea if cost matters to you.

EDIT: I haven't felt the need to spec a programming laptop like that. 16/512 feels fast enough, and 32/512 would have room to bloat... er, I mean grow. But I don't use a local LLM, and I don't know whether the difference between a heavily-quantized thing that fits in 16 GB and whatever you can fit in 48 is significant versus the ones running on absurd data center CPUs.

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#173

Post by ncallaway »

dale_huevo wrote: post #160
nucleardog wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really doesn't seem like you're trying to engage constructively here. Framework sells keyboards for the Framework 13 for ~$30. I can find a Surface Go on sale for as low as $500. No, I don't think anyone's going to throw out a $500-$1000 device because it needs a $30 part and maybe 15 minutes of work (steps here: https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Framework+Laptop+12+Input+Cover... ) and they could instead replace their…

> It really doesn't seem like you're trying to engage constructively here. So I'm not allowed to disagree? For the record: I think the Framework laptop, while a noble cause, is a foolish endeavor as executed and they will be out of business in 5 years. I'm assuming you've stocked spare parts because by the time you need a new keyboard, there is a chance they will be out of production (or out of business) and those pa…

> So I'm not allowed to disagree? For the record: I think the Framework laptop, while a noble cause, is a foolish endeavor as executed and they will be out of business in 5 years.

:shrug: people said the same thing when I first bought my laptop 4 years ago. Parts are readily available today, and I expect them to be so in a year.

If nine years after I bought the laptop I can't get a replacement keyboard, I'll be a bit disappointed that the project failed, but the laptop will easily be net-positive from a cost benefit perspective long before that

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#174

Post by criddell »

ndiddy wrote: post #146
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't the chip which determines whether it's fanless. Basically every modern chip supports power capping and then the power cap is determined by how much heat the machine can dissipate. What that really determines is multi-thread performance. Fanless laptop that can dissipate the power of one core? No problem. Fanless laptop that can dissipate the power of all the cores? For that you have to lower the clock speed…

If someone besides Apple made a fanless laptop that had competitive performance with Apple's offerings (i.e. not a $200 Chromebook with a Celeron or a cast-off 5 year old smartphone CPU), I'd absolutely buy one. I got excited when the Qualcomm Snapdragon X was being discussed pre-launch, but then it came out with performance worse than the original M1 and it turned out that Qualcomm lied about giving it first-class L…

I believe the Microsoft Surface Pro 7 is fanless. Sadly, the 8 and 9 have a fan.

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#175

Post by distances »

nucleardog wrote: post #130

> A good laptop, but not a good value Where "value" is purely monetary, I think that pretty succinctly sums up my experience/views on the Framework product line. They make good laptops, but you can generally get more for fewer dollars. If you're shopping on price, you can probably just skip right over their entire product line. That doesn't mean that their offering doesn't have value. It has value has a vote with you…

And note that if the price is a pain point, you're free to order the Framework DIY without RAM and NVMe and get them cheaper elsewhere. Should bring it closer to the competition price point.

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#176

Post by Dylan16807 »

perching_aix wrote: post #168
Dylan16807 wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess, but even without measuring pixel inches/degrees it feels clearly wrong to me to say that proper 1x on a 12 inch laptop screen is only 960x600. 1280x720 or 1280x800 makes more sense to me, and then there's no confusion because 1920 is a clear 1.5x resolution.

For what it's worth, it's a pretty small diagonal size. Netbooks used to be about this size, and those had exactly such low resolutions on them. Conversely, you'd see 1280x720, but especially 1366x786, more on regular variety laptops (~15"), and if you crunch the numbers for these (using standard ppi), it maps pretty much exactly right. So we've come a long way on Windows/Linux/BSD land, even if there's much more to…

I accuse those 15 inch laptops of being below the bar. 15 inch should be 1600x900.

If 960xwhatever is okay at 12 inches, then 1366x768 wouldn't even be the baseline resolution for 15 inch laptops, it would be the baseline resolution for 17 inch laptops. That just sounds silly to me.

Assuming the laptop screen is just 20% closer goes a long way here to figuring out a good resolution. And it gives 720p to 12/13 inch laptops at 1x.

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#177

Post by leptons »

atrus wrote: post #148
nucleardog wrote: post #130

> A good laptop, but not a good value Where "value" is purely monetary, I think that pretty succinctly sums up my experience/views on the Framework product line. They make good laptops, but you can generally get more for fewer dollars. If you're shopping on price, you can probably just skip right over their entire product line. That doesn't mean that their offering doesn't have value. It has value has a vote with you…

I think the repairabilty makes it hard to even compare monetary value, since in theory, you'd be keeping the same body, while swapping out the mainboard. Is it cheaper to buy two other laptops compared to one laptop + mainboard? That's what, a 3-5 year timeline? Who knows what prices/capabilities/etc will be like then.

It could also be worth it to keep the same body and upgrade over the years, just to avoid the frustration of re-learning a new laptop keyboard layout.

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#178

Post by theodric »

nrp wrote: post #147
sixothree wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really don't understand this argument about price. It seems extremely competitive on price to me. Am I crazy or am I really seeing 48 GB and 2 TB for $1500? For $1500 you get a 16 GB 512 GB macbook air.

This is a key part of our product value prop. Our memory and storage upgrade pricing is much lower than most other laptop makers, and you can find your own on the open market for even less. Other laptop makers can preserve their overall margin by overcharging on those upgrades, which lets them price their base SKUs more aggressively. We accepted the tradeoff of not gouging on upgrades.

I got my wife an entire-ass Framework 13 7840U /and/ put 32GB RAM and a 2TB SSD in it for less than the cost of the uplift to go from base RAM to 32GB and base SSD to 2TB from Apple at time of preorder. That was the day I stopped being an Apple customer. Maybe for the $300 Walmart laptop folks it's too expensive, but hardly for Mac refugees.

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#179

Post by leptons »

criddell wrote: post #14

Is it unreasonable to think Framework should be able to make a laptop competitive with the 5 years old MacBook Air M1? I get that Framework focuses on making repairable machines, but does that prevent them from making a fanless, hi dpi, good performing, long battery life machine? I wouldn’t expect parity with an M4 machine, but it doesn’t seem unreasonable to think they should be competitive with the much older M1. I…

The Apple M-series laptops get a performance boost by putting the RAM inside the CPU, which makes it completely impossible to upgrade RAM. That is the antithesis of what Framework is doing. Apple are the kings of disposable hardware that costs way more than the competition for no good reason. You want 32GB? You're going to pay a lot for it. Oh, now you need 64GB? Too bad, throw out that old laptop and get a new one.

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#180

Post by nrp »

dale_huevo wrote: post #160
nucleardog wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really doesn't seem like you're trying to engage constructively here. Framework sells keyboards for the Framework 13 for ~$30. I can find a Surface Go on sale for as low as $500. No, I don't think anyone's going to throw out a $500-$1000 device because it needs a $30 part and maybe 15 minutes of work (steps here: https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Framework+Laptop+12+Input+Cover... ) and they could instead replace their…

> It really doesn't seem like you're trying to engage constructively here. So I'm not allowed to disagree? For the record: I think the Framework laptop, while a noble cause, is a foolish endeavor as executed and they will be out of business in 5 years. I'm assuming you've stocked spare parts because by the time you need a new keyboard, there is a chance they will be out of production (or out of business) and those pa…

I'll take the other side of that bet!
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