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FAA to eliminate floppy disks used in air traffic control systems

tomshardware.com

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Re: FAA to eliminate floppy disks used in air traffic control systems

#171

Post by dwood_dev »

WalterBright wrote: post #114
scott_w wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If it works, then don't change it. As the article points out: the hardware is at risk of physically failing and it’s getting harder to replace like for like. That’s the reason for looking at an upgrade. Hell, even turning the machines off to replace them is a challenge since some systems need to run 24/7!

If the machine is that old, couldn't an emulator be used to migrate to modern hardware?

I would not be surprised if many of these systems rely on several ISA cards with proprietary protocols and drivers.

I am only aware of a single modern-ish motherboard with ISA, the MS-98A9, and it only supports Intel 3rd Gen Core series CPUs.

That said, if it was a large enough project, reverse engineering and re-implementing using modern components would likely be feasible. Turning each of these into network services handled by something more akin to a RaspberryPi could modernize the data sources while providing a sustainable and modular replacement strategy. The problem is that its not "sexy" enough to get a major government project, and it would not grease the correct palms that a multi-billion dollar next-gen complex proprietary replacement would.

Re: FAA to eliminate floppy disks used in air traffic control systems

#172

Post by ryandrake »

seattle_spring wrote: post #100
latexr wrote: post #7

> This is the most important infrastructure project that we’ve had in this country for decades. Everyone agrees — this is non-partisan. Everyone knows we have to do it. Considering the current political climate and rampant government cuts to important services, I very much doubt “everyone agrees” and that this is the best time to be planning such an important transition.

> Considering the current political climate and rampant government cuts to important services Not to mention rampant anti-intellectualism

Yea, I'd be more worried that they're going to hire a 19 year old who knows nothing about tech or aviation, but who happens to be the son of a Heritage Foundation big shot, to head up the FAA tech modernization project. The scariest part of this administration is how unnecessary knowledge and expertise is when it comes to hiring the leaders.

Re: FAA to eliminate floppy disks used in air traffic control systems

#173

Post by 2OEH8eoCRo0 »

stackedinserter wrote: post #163
2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing if it still does the job. I buy new things when they can't do their job anymore or I have a new problem to solve. My desktop and car are over 12 years old.

Why don't you use floppy disks then?

I've answered that. Because you can't read and the problems that I need to solve have changed.

Re: FAA to eliminate floppy disks used in air traffic control systems

#174

Post by stackedinserter »

2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #173
stackedinserter wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why don't you use floppy disks then?

I've answered that. Because you can't read and the problems that I need to solve have changed.

What are those "problems" that you can't solve with floppy disks? Just use more of them. They still work, remember?

Re: FAA to eliminate floppy disks used in air traffic control systems

#175

Post by [deleted] »

jklowden wrote: post #154

> some systems can never be shut down Tomshardware could do better reporting. There is no such thing as a computer that can’t fail, or a component that can’t be replaced. Does our reporter think the entire system was installed 25 years ago, and not one component has been replaced since? More likely it’s the ship of Theseus, and not one component is original. I’ve replaced whole systems without interruption. You build…

[deleted]

Re: FAA to eliminate floppy disks used in air traffic control systems

#176

Post by uselesswords »

kube-system wrote: post #151
uselesswords wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody even mentioned DOGE

The reason this story is in the news currently is because the current FAA administrator specifically turned the FAA's floppy disks into a story about why DOGE should be involved at the FAA.

Thank you for context.

Re: FAA to eliminate floppy disks used in air traffic control systems

#177

Post by UltraSane »

M95D wrote: post #135
UltraSane wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it uses any analog hardware it makes emulation much harder.

If it uses any digital hardware directly accessed by software (something that Win9x still allowed, see DOS games w/ ISA sound cards), it makes virtualization impossible.

No, pretending to behave like other digital hardware is exactly what virtualization does.

Re: FAA to eliminate floppy disks used in air traffic control systems

#178

Post by csdreamer7 »

squigz wrote: post #33
csdreamer7 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ATC is a safety-critical function that has what amounts to a 100% uptime requirement. Whatever system they're running currently either works or has known flaws that they know how to work around, and air traffic controllers have been trained on these systems for more than a generation now. Upgrading merely for the sake of being up to date would have been foolish no matter how much funding Congress would have given t…

> I do not have enough knowledge to disagree on this. But I will say the FAA is still on floppy disks when the US Nuclear Arsenal moved off floppies back in 2019. Well this isn't very long in terms of overhauling safety-critical systems that have many decades worth of processes and infrastructure built up around them, is it?

> Well this isn't very long in terms of overhauling safety-critical systems that have many decades worth of processes and infrastructure built up around them, is it?

Do you actually know if 6 years is enough time? If so, provide info.

As for myself, I do not know. I do know once it was reported they were on floppy disks; they finished moving off it in 3 years. If wasn't for the media report I doubt it would happen. Once again, different systems, but likely public embarrassment motivated the move more than anything else.

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/05/26/479588478...

Re: FAA to eliminate floppy disks used in air traffic control systems

#179

Post by os2warpman »

userbinator wrote: post #105

Aside from that, the upgrades to this critical infrastructure should be resistant to hacking and other vulnerabilities They should realise that, unlike e.g. USB drives or SSDs or even HDDs[1], floppy disks are dumb raw media and cannot contain any "hidden" behaviour, and the failure modes are well-known. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23735424

>floppy disks are dumb raw media and cannot contain any "hidden" behavior

Look up floppy boot sector viruses.

Re: FAA to eliminate floppy disks used in air traffic control systems

#180

Post by userbinator »

os2warpman wrote: post #179
userbinator wrote: post #105

Aside from that, the upgrades to this critical infrastructure should be resistant to hacking and other vulnerabilities They should realise that, unlike e.g. USB drives or SSDs or even HDDs[1], floppy disks are dumb raw media and cannot contain any "hidden" behaviour, and the failure modes are well-known. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23735424

>floppy disks are dumb raw media and cannot contain any "hidden" behavior Look up floppy boot sector viruses.

That's not "hidden".
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