Live data from Hacker News

How Ukraine’s killer drones are beating Russian jamming

spectrum.ieee.org

171–180 of 454 posts

Re: How Ukraine’s killer drones are beating Russian jamming

#171
post #65
post #15

I really don’t get all the fretting about drones making kill-no-kill decisions. You’re telling me that you’d rather this was done by a stressed, emotional, tired front-line private? Reminds me of the debate about a self driving car that might need to mount the curb to avoid hitting a car - and therefore endangering a pedestrian. It’s not an easy decision but I’d rather a machine made it than a stressed person!

The issue is that software making these decisions can't possibly have the full context when making the decision because it was coded long before the decision point occurred. What does that mean in practice? Have you ever saw a flash in the corner of your eye, looked for a second, then realised it was just a reflection? For that split second, your brain identified a potential threat and was trying to quickly decide wh…

> Have you ever saw a flash in the corner of your eye, looked for a second, then realised it was just a reflection? For that split second, your brain identified a potential threat and was trying to quickly decide whether to hide, fight or run. But underneath that was a nagging of "it's probably nothing," that caused you to delay pulling out your gun and opening fire on a passing car.

.. or vice-versa. The average war has plenty of stressed people firing semi blindly at half-identified shapes. And if we want to be literal, there's the case of Lee Clegg and the exact circumstances in which it is legal or not to open fire on a passing car and kill a teenage girl.

Re: How Ukraine’s killer drones are beating Russian jamming

#172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"He said that each of the 117 drones launched had its own pilot." https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c1ld7ppre9vo

Sun Tzu says it better: "A military operation involves deception." He could be telling the truth, he could be lying... A drone programmed to automatically boot up , check its location, and if it's at the right coordinates, take off and crash at some other coordinates (the airfield) is more satisfying to "fans" of automated warfare. For extra fun, add some other code to "look for plane-like objects to crash into", but…

> What if a civilian 737 happens to be boarding at this airfield

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17

Good old non-AI radar-guided missile launched by human crew of Russians.

Re: How Ukraine’s killer drones are beating Russian jamming

#173
post #145

Hoping and praying someone in the administration is able to convince Trump to align closer to Ukraine (even if only slightly) because of this. The Ukrainians pulled off an absolute coup on Sunday. A third of a nuclear-armed country's strategic bomber fleet inoperable for the foreseeable future. Someone at NORAD probably said "they should have sent a poet" while looking at the satellite imagery. If middle powers like…

> If middle powers like Ukraine can do that to Russia, they can do that to countries like the US Ukraine borders on Russia, but the US is separated by ocean from serious threats. Attack by UAVs of this sort seems nearly impossible.

How does the ocean protect America from swarms of short range drones being launched from normal looking shipping containers on trucks being controlled from thousands of miles away?

Re: How Ukraine’s killer drones are beating Russian jamming

#174
post #170
post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If middle powers like Ukraine can do that to Russia, they can do that to countries like the US Ukraine borders on Russia, but the US is separated by ocean from serious threats. Attack by UAVs of this sort seems nearly impossible.

Don’t we receive millions of containers of cargo annually, not to mention having fewer internal movement restrictions? It certainly doesn’t seem implausible that someone could ship some drones around - the hardest part is avoiding explosives detector, but that’s a hard problem and the defense has the unenviable task of having to get it right millions of times.

Countries could be forward deploying these assets covertly in deniable ways in prep for future tensions?

Re: How Ukraine’s killer drones are beating Russian jamming

#175

India used oldschool L70 Guns, zu 23 and ZSU-23-4 Shilka against pakisthan's drone swarm attacks. They are modernized to track, lock, and fire automatically. But they are cheap.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bofors_40_mm_Automatic_Gun_L/7...

Immediate post-WW2 vintage. The classic design of AA gun.

As far as I understand it from talking about Turkish drones, you mean https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayraktar_TB2 style, aircraft size drones, rather than the quadcopter size ones? The latter can more easily hide in terrain.

Re: How Ukraine’s killer drones are beating Russian jamming

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Still only need one flying drone to identify all targets. There maybe more camera drones available to pilot, but still only need one flying to spot. A static target only needs to be seen once.

I understand that you’re probably just gonna reply with “still only need one camera” …but if GPS is jammed, and there’s only one camera per fleet, how exactly are the other drones supposed to navigate towards the spotted targets unless they’re all equipped with cameras?

One camera drone can see if another drone is on target.

Re: How Ukraine’s killer drones are beating Russian jamming

#177
post #2

Beyond jamming, I imagine some kind of autonomous laser system could also be pretty effective at downing large numbers of drones within a given radius.

The main defence drones have against both lasers and Bofors-type guns is staying low, such that they are below the horizon or behind ground clutter until as late as possible.

Re: How Ukraine’s killer drones are beating Russian jamming

#178
post #120

Hoping and praying someone in the administration is able to convince Trump to align closer to Ukraine (even if only slightly) because of this. The Ukrainians pulled off an absolute coup on Sunday. A third of a nuclear-armed country's strategic bomber fleet inoperable for the foreseeable future. Someone at NORAD probably said "they should have sent a poet" while looking at the satellite imagery. If middle powers like…

Apparently the final tally was 12 planes, but still, an impressive display

12 destroyed. Hard to tell if the others were only damaged, and of course, how badly.

The first casualty of war is the truth.

That being said, any sort of materiel loss on weaponry as important as strategic nuclear bombers is a massive problem for Russia. The logistics of repairing them, if possible, is going to be complex.

Re: How Ukraine’s killer drones are beating Russian jamming

#179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sun Tzu says it better: "A military operation involves deception." He could be telling the truth, he could be lying... A drone programmed to automatically boot up , check its location, and if it's at the right coordinates, take off and crash at some other coordinates (the airfield) is more satisfying to "fans" of automated warfare. For extra fun, add some other code to "look for plane-like objects to crash into", but…

Only need one camera drone capable of identifying targets. And just tells another drone to bomb it.

Or can “paint it” with an infrared laser point and then the drone can use simple sensors to guide itself to the target.

Re: How Ukraine’s killer drones are beating Russian jamming

#180
post #138
post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what did they do, just stick GPS coordinates and the drones were that successful autonomously (talking of the Russian fighter base attack from the last 48 hours)? I'd be shocked if they didn't manually pilot these things.

OpenCV and other onboard computer softwares can be trained to recognize shapes, 10+ years ago there was a demo of a NodeCopter controlled small drone following red flags. Stick the GPS coord, fly there, and once in a geofence look for a shape to crash into doesn't seem impossible given what was possible 10 years ago.

There is often quite heavy GPS jamming or spoofing. Also in some of the published videos I think you can see a "no GPS lock" status message - but maybe they just did not bother with GPS if all the drones were manually piloted anyway.
Post reply on HN