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U.S. sanctions cloud provider 'Funnull' as top source of 'pig butchering' scams

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Re: U.S. sanctions cloud provider 'Funnull' as top source of 'pig butchering' scams

#171

Post by washadjeffmad »

gradschool wrote: post #156
naet wrote: post #25

Cryptocurrency enables a big part of this. Not saying that there weren't any wire scams before crypto, but crypto has made it much easier for average people to make anonymous international money transfers that can't be reversed. Not to start a big argument, but to my eyes the main usecases of cryptocurrency are to bet on them as a speculative asset or to use them for various forms of crime. Someone will probably tell…

> Someone will probably tell me about some theoretical situation where it is a positive force Challenge accepted. My positive use case for cryptocurrency pertains to someone like me being over sixty and worried about being swept up into the guardianship system. With most of my assets in crypto and assuming decent opsec, they would be inaccessible to the guardian. If a judge ordered me to grant access, could I be cite…

That's what happened to my grandfather, and the same happened to a friend's father two years ago.

There are greater protections against elder abuse today, but often by the time their broker or finance manager finds out, the damage has been done.

Re: U.S. sanctions cloud provider 'Funnull' as top source of 'pig butchering' scams

#172

Post by SOLAR_FIELDS »

whimsicalism wrote: post #27
strogonoff wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pig butchering gets additionally horrible when you consider the other side. People who actually handle the chatting are kept in inhuman conditions and physically cannot leave. Laundered profits go to criminal bosses at the top (corrupting various local governments, given they constitute a significant percentage of their economies at this point). See Number Go Up by Zeke Faux for a glimpse into that (and how cryptocur…

i think the degree to which this is fully true is overstated from when i've looked into it. a lot of it is not the best working environments, but people are still scamming people for pay and are largely not forced to do so.

Various stories from people who have been on the other side of this tend to concur. I unfortunately cannot find the story, but a Pakistani call center scam artist who was hired by one of these crime syndicates went on record recently talking about the experience (I think it was in a podcast) and he said that he was recruited into a well paid, well organized machine and the workers themselves were treated well. He painted a picture of a hyper-competitive Glengarry Glen Ross-esque environment with leaderboards and the like, where people fought over and protected their "leads" (marks). The only struggle for him was not the working conditions, but rather with the moral aspects when he realized what he was doing.

Usually, as you would expect, the employees don't really realize until after they are recruited in what they are doing, and oftentimes the money and job is cushy enough they are willing to set aside their morals to do it.

Re: U.S. sanctions cloud provider 'Funnull' as top source of 'pig butchering' scams

#173

Post by deadbabe »

naet wrote: post #25

Cryptocurrency enables a big part of this. Not saying that there weren't any wire scams before crypto, but crypto has made it much easier for average people to make anonymous international money transfers that can't be reversed. Not to start a big argument, but to my eyes the main usecases of cryptocurrency are to bet on them as a speculative asset or to use them for various forms of crime. Someone will probably tell…

The idea that someone could just beat you with a lead pipe until you open up your bitcoin wallet and surrender all the bitcoins and then there is nothing you can do about it in any kind of legal system or even cryptographically should terrify anyone into boasting about having any kind of bitcoin assets.

Re: U.S. sanctions cloud provider 'Funnull' as top source of 'pig butchering' scams

#174

Post by mbrubeck »

robcohen wrote: post #7
tw04 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you cite where in the US code of law a foreign criminal is afforded due process in a sanction action?

KindHearts for Charitable Humanitarian Development v. Geithner and Al Haramain Islamic Foundation v. U.S. Department of the Treasury

In both of those cases the designated entity was incorporated in the US (KindHearts in Ohio, AHIF-Oregon in Oregon).

Re: U.S. sanctions cloud provider 'Funnull' as top source of 'pig butchering' scams

#175

Post by gosub100 »

TechDebtDevin wrote: post #119
silisili wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Banks aren't perfect, but they also aren't anonymous. If you feel wronged, you can take appropriate legal recourse. Crypto offers no such thing.

How is paypal / venmo / cashapp different?

KYC

Re: U.S. sanctions cloud provider 'Funnull' as top source of 'pig butchering' scams

#176

Post by bryceneal »

rs186 wrote: post #165
bryceneal wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree that cryptocurrency can make the process much easier for scammers, I am wondering what exactly is the proposed solution? Something like 28% of adults in the US own cryptocurrency, and that number increases every year. A few years ago I could see path to some kind of global crackdown on crypto by governments around the world, but it now seems to me that cryptocurrency has reached terminal velocity and it…

In China, cryptocurrency is effectively banned -- mining machines are confiscated, banks are not allowed to do any transaction with crypto exchanges. Effectively you cannot turn money into crypto or the other way via normal means in China. Of course some people still find ways, and pig butchering exists in China, but it is much harder via the crypto route. I don't know if there will ever be a global crackdown, but I…

I believe China's cryptocurrency ban is more about fighting capital flight than scammers. There are restrictions in China on everything from foreign exchange, overseas investments, domestic property, and cross-border payments. They have two separate currencies in part to prevent money from leaving the country.

That said, China is one of the most authoritarian countries in the world. It has some of the most effective controls in place around media, speech, technology, and capital of any country. I'm not sure whether that model could be easily copied, and whether it should be copied is maybe a different conversation altogether.

Re: U.S. sanctions cloud provider 'Funnull' as top source of 'pig butchering' scams

#177

Post by lesuorac »

jaoane wrote: post #123
lesuorac wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like some process was followed here to me. FBI investigated a bunch of scams and found somebody assisted scammers. It's not like they pulled a name out of a hat and sanctioned them.

Where’s the judge in all of this?

Due process just means following pre-written law. ex. There's no judge involved when a cop shows up to a fight and arrests both people.

It's the same law [1] that everybody is talking about w.r.t. Trump's Tariffs except that global trade isn't emergent while Funnull is a new actor.

[1]: https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/DCPD-201600880/pdf/DCPD-...

Re: U.S. sanctions cloud provider 'Funnull' as top source of 'pig butchering' scams

#178

Post by dpassens »

deadbabe wrote: post #173
naet wrote: post #25

Cryptocurrency enables a big part of this. Not saying that there weren't any wire scams before crypto, but crypto has made it much easier for average people to make anonymous international money transfers that can't be reversed. Not to start a big argument, but to my eyes the main usecases of cryptocurrency are to bet on them as a speculative asset or to use them for various forms of crime. Someone will probably tell…

The idea that someone could just beat you with a lead pipe until you open up your bitcoin wallet and surrender all the bitcoins and then there is nothing you can do about it in any kind of legal system or even cryptographically should terrify anyone into boasting about having any kind of bitcoin assets.

I wouldn't recommend boasting about owning bitcoin either but why couldn't you involve the legal system? They can go after the criminals who beat you with the pipe just as they could if they beat you to get to your cash/luxury car/art/jewelry/other valuable stuff.

Re: U.S. sanctions cloud provider 'Funnull' as top source of 'pig butchering' scams

#179

Post by lesuorac »

SoftTalker wrote: post #160
lesuorac wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The banks are usually unwilling to do them, and an individual may not be able to force them to in practice, but it's still possible in a way it's not possible with crypto. Generally they're unwilling to do that because it involves losing money for them. Transfers work in a multi-step process to ensure money isn't created. You tell Bank A to transfer money to person X at Bank B. Bank A tells an intermediary bank C t…

But you know who customer X is and if he obtained the money fraudulently then the bank (or police, courts, etc) can go after him to recover it. It might not happen but it's possible.

Same statement could be said about you no?

You're the one that was defrauded. The bank processed the transfer exactly as you told them to. So therefore, if person X isn't providing the service you expected then you should have to go to the courts to get it back?

The general problem is that it takes a lot of leg work. Often Customer X was being defrauded through some payroll scam (they take out ~500 and forward the remaining 1500). So now you have to recover $500 from them and then trace the 1500 again. Possibly through multiple countries and their courts (who may see this as beneficial for their country; jury nullification goes both ways).

Re: U.S. sanctions cloud provider 'Funnull' as top source of 'pig butchering' scams

#180

Post by LiquidSky »

gradschool wrote: post #156
naet wrote: post #25

Cryptocurrency enables a big part of this. Not saying that there weren't any wire scams before crypto, but crypto has made it much easier for average people to make anonymous international money transfers that can't be reversed. Not to start a big argument, but to my eyes the main usecases of cryptocurrency are to bet on them as a speculative asset or to use them for various forms of crime. Someone will probably tell…

> Someone will probably tell me about some theoretical situation where it is a positive force Challenge accepted. My positive use case for cryptocurrency pertains to someone like me being over sixty and worried about being swept up into the guardianship system. With most of my assets in crypto and assuming decent opsec, they would be inaccessible to the guardian. If a judge ordered me to grant access, could I be cite…

Elder abuse is certainly a real problem, but the guardianship/conservatorship system also does address a real problem: many seniors actually do become mentally unable to manage themselves.

You're worried about falsely being forced into a guardianship, but what happens if you actually do develop Alzheimer's or some other form of dementia and your family legitimately needs access to your assets to care for you? It's easy to say you'd just give them access before it gets really bad, but an insidious part of the problem is that someone suffering from such a decline either doesn't, or refuses to, recognize it happening.

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