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They used Xenon to climb Everest in days – is it the future of mountaineering?

nytimes.com

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Re: They used Xenon to climb Everest in days – is it the future of mountaineering?

#171

Post by djtango »

comrade1234 wrote: post #11

So they slept in hypoxia tents which activates the hypoxia-inducible factor molecule, but they also took xenon which also activates the molecule. So, it's not clear if the xenon actually did anything? Back during the 2000 dot-com boom crash I met a guy who got into a top business school in part by writing about the challenges of climbing Everest. He confessed drunkenly at a party to me that he'd never even left the U…

Meta but the discussion from this anecdote drove so much societal commentary, I totally forgot I was here to talk about Xenon-assisted mountaineering and experienced whiplash when people started talking about xenon again...

Re: They used Xenon to climb Everest in days – is it the future of mountaineering?

#172

Post by gadders »

nradov wrote: post #155
gadders wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always wondered if the allied forces were giving their elite troops EPO or similar when tracking the Taliban up and down mountains in Afghanistan. If they weren't, I think they should have been.

I don't know about EPO, it probably wouldn't have been that useful. But it was an open secret that a lot of the elite ground troops used illegally purchased performance enhancing steroids to build muscle and accelerate recovery. Long patrols through rough terrain while carrying a heavy load are extremely grueling and a little enhancement was tremendously helpful. Use of those drugs was technically a violation of mili…

You'd think they'd have a proper programme for it for the elite troops.

Unless you're doing completely stupid doses it can be managed safely, and it's not like the soldiers are not already doing something inherently risky.

Re: They used Xenon to climb Everest in days – is it the future of mountaineering?

#173

Post by mannyv »

legacynl wrote: post #170
rtkwe wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I wish all of these news articles would discuss the actual studies They do, if you read them. > While some doctors have used the gas in the past to “precondition” patients to low oxygen levels — for example, before major heart surgery — the practice hasn’t really caught on because “it hasn’t been as protective as one would hope,” he said. > Mike Shattock, a professor of cellular cardiology at King’s College London,…

All the quotes you posted basically say the same thing; There is no evidence for the efficacy of xenon. That's scientist speak for: "Xenon doesn't work".

It depends. It might mean that there are no studies that show efficacy or the lack thereof.

A lack of evidence doesn't mean it doesn't work. It depends on what you mean by 'evidence.'

Take one or two reports.

A scientist would say, 'that's an anecdote.'

A lawyer would day, 'I can send you to jail with those two reports.'

Re: They used Xenon to climb Everest in days – is it the future of mountaineering?

#174

Post by TheCondor »

jebarker wrote: post #89

Climbing Everest these days just seems to be the quintessential activity for people that have lost site of what really matters in life. It's where you end up if you never grow out of the idea that life is a competition you can win.

There are both kinds. There are passionate mountaineers that want to reach the tallest summit, with varying degrees of “rules” about it that matter to them. There are also a group of “tourists” that want it for, what appears to be, other reasons.

Some special forces guys, record summit Everest time… let me guess, one is an SAS sniper with numerous recorded kills in Iraq or Afghanistan… but clearly he can’t talk much about it, he just needs you to know it… maybe some mi5 action in there… this is tailor made for a “bro-tube” channel.

Re: They used Xenon to climb Everest in days – is it the future of mountaineering?

#175

Post by nine_k »

> Should scaling Mount Everest, one of sporting’s greatest accomplishments, be made easier

But it has been, for a long time. Base camps, oxygen masks, advanced gear, etc all make climbing easier.

Similarly, should lifting 200 kg be made easier? It has been made easy, you can use a forklift and barely move your finger to do so. But this is not seen as an accomplishment; if you want to be considered a strong weightlifter, you have to lift an old-school barbell.

The biggest problem, as I can imagine, is not the dilution of the achievement, but the intensity of the stream if the climbers. Mt Everest is already full of climbers who follow each other at a short distance. Doubling this stream might ruin the experience altogether, or there would be large lines and inevitably large fees to jump them.

Re: They used Xenon to climb Everest in days – is it the future of mountaineering?

#176

Post by EasyMark »

nine_k wrote: post #175

> Should scaling Mount Everest, one of sporting’s greatest accomplishments, be made easier But it has been, for a long time. Base camps, oxygen masks, advanced gear, etc all make climbing easier. Similarly, should lifting 200 kg be made easier? It has been made easy, you can use a forklift and barely move your finger to do so. But this is not seen as an accomplishment; if you want to be considered a strong weightlift…

They can easily limit the number of climbers with quotas, which they already do.

Re: They used Xenon to climb Everest in days – is it the future of mountaineering?

#177

Post by rtkwe »

legacynl wrote: post #170
rtkwe wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I wish all of these news articles would discuss the actual studies They do, if you read them. > While some doctors have used the gas in the past to “precondition” patients to low oxygen levels — for example, before major heart surgery — the practice hasn’t really caught on because “it hasn’t been as protective as one would hope,” he said. > Mike Shattock, a professor of cellular cardiology at King’s College London,…

All the quotes you posted basically say the same thing; There is no evidence for the efficacy of xenon. That's scientist speak for: "Xenon doesn't work".

Depends, it can also mean "this hasn't really been studied well" if there just hasn't been much research into it. I just pulled all the times it talked about studies or another expert talking about it being ineffective.

Re: They used Xenon to climb Everest in days – is it the future of mountaineering?

#178

Post by rtkwe »

Aurornis wrote: post #159
rtkwe wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I wish all of these news articles would discuss the actual studies They do, if you read them. > While some doctors have used the gas in the past to “precondition” patients to low oxygen levels — for example, before major heart surgery — the practice hasn’t really caught on because “it hasn’t been as protective as one would hope,” he said. > Mike Shattock, a professor of cellular cardiology at King’s College London,…

> They do, if you read them. I did read the article, which is how I knew Lukas Furtenbach was involved. Please don’t accuse people of not reading the article when they’re specifically talking about content of the article. Anyway, my point was that if these articles wanted to be serious about the science, they’d lead with the studies and science. Instead, they tack on weasel words (literally “some experts say” and “so…

It's not a scientific publication though... it's the NYTimes. The main story is that the guys managed a summit in 3 days. For all the controversy around Xenon and it's effects as a PED in sport the combo of hypoxia tents and Xenon provably worked at least this time to enable the rapid summit.

Re: They used Xenon to climb Everest in days – is it the future of mountaineering?

#179

Post by [deleted] »

mattmaroon wrote: post #166
Aurornis wrote: post #123

Note that these all of these Xenon-Everest stories come back to the same person: Lukas Furtenbach Why? Because he’s launching a business that sells Xenon-assisted Everest tours: https://www.furtenbachadventures.com/ These stories are never about uncovering an underground world of Xenon performance enhancement or discussing the science (which is much less optimistic about Xenon’s benefits). They’re always lazily relay…

That’s some really solid PR work on his part if true, but if he is scaling (pun intended) tours that actually do manage to summit Everest in significantly decreased time, I would say that it’s strong evidence that Xenon actually works and the science just hasn’t caught up to it yet. Unless he has found some other clever way that he is for some reason pretending is Xenon.

[deleted]

Re: They used Xenon to climb Everest in days – is it the future of mountaineering?

#180

Post by Aurornis »

mattmaroon wrote: post #166
Aurornis wrote: post #123

Note that these all of these Xenon-Everest stories come back to the same person: Lukas Furtenbach Why? Because he’s launching a business that sells Xenon-assisted Everest tours: https://www.furtenbachadventures.com/ These stories are never about uncovering an underground world of Xenon performance enhancement or discussing the science (which is much less optimistic about Xenon’s benefits). They’re always lazily relay…

That’s some really solid PR work on his part if true, but if he is scaling (pun intended) tours that actually do manage to summit Everest in significantly decreased time, I would say that it’s strong evidence that Xenon actually works and the science just hasn’t caught up to it yet. Unless he has found some other clever way that he is for some reason pretending is Xenon.

> I would say that it’s strong evidence that Xenon actually works

The only evidence is the claims from the person selling the expensive five-figure Everest packages. It’s the very definition of a conflict of interest.

They also use multiple treatments, not just Xenon. The hikers sleep in hypobaric chambers. Another comment said they used supplemental oxygen but were hiding details about how much.

There is no evidence or even head-to-head testing here. It’s all claims that come from one person, who is also trying to sell the treatment.

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