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Migrating away from Rust

deadmoney.gg

171–180 of 799 posts

Re: Migrating away from Rust

#171
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is calling Rust from Go fast? Last time I checked the interface between C and Go is very slow

I have no experience with FFI between C and Go, could anyone shed some light on this? They are both natively compiled languages – why would calls between them be much slower than any old function call?

There's some type translation and the Go runtime needs to turn some things off before calling out to C

Re: Migrating away from Rust

#172

Rust is not good for video game gameplay logic. The ownership model of Rust can not represent the vast majority of allocations. I love Rust. It’s not for shipping video games. No Tiny Glade doesn’t count. Edit: don’t know why you’re downvoting. I love Rust. I use it at my job and look for ways to use it more. I’ve also shipped a lot of games. And if you look at Steam there are simply zero Rust made games in the top 2…

> Also you’re strictly forbidden from shipping Rust code on PlayStation. So if you have a breakout indie hit on Steam in Rust (which has never happened) you can’t ship it on PS5. And maybe not Switch although I’m less certain.

What evidence do you have for this statement? It kind of doesn't make any sense on its face. Binaries are binaries, no matter what tools are used to compile them. Sure, you might need to use whatever platform-specific SDK stuff to sign the binary or whatever, but why would Rust in particular be singled out as being forbidden?

Despite not being yet released publicly, Jai can compile code for PlayStation, Xbox, and Switch platforms (with platform-specific modules not included in the beta release, available upon request provided proof of platform SDK access).

Re: Migrating away from Rust

#173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> C# is a very highly underrated (and oft misunderstood) language that has become more terse as it has aged -- in a very good way. C#'s terseness has not come at the cost of its legibility and in fact, I feel like enhances it in many cases. C# and .net are one of the most mature platform for development of all kind. It's just that online, it carries some sort of anti Microsoft stigma... But a lot of AA or indie games…

> People tend to be influenced by opinions online but often the real world is completely different. Unfortunately, my experience has been that C#'s lack of popularity online translates into a lot of misunderstandings about the language and thus many teams simply do not consider it. Some folks still think it's Windows-only. Some folks think you need to use Visual Studio. Some think it's too hard to learn. Lots of misc…

You don't need to use Visual Studio, but it really makes a difference in the overall experience.

I think there may also be some misunderstandings regarding the purchase models around these tools. Visual Studio 2022 Professional is possible to outright purchase for $500 [0] and use perpetually. You do NOT need a subscription. I've got a license key printed on paper that I can use to activate my copy each time.

Imagine a plumber or electrician spending time worrying about the ideological consequences of purchasing critical tools that cost a few hundred dollars.

[0] https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/d/visual-studio-professional...

Re: Migrating away from Rust

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> C# is a very highly underrated (and oft misunderstood) language that has become more terse as it has aged -- in a very good way. C#'s terseness has not come at the cost of its legibility and in fact, I feel like enhances it in many cases. C# and .net are one of the most mature platform for development of all kind. It's just that online, it carries some sort of anti Microsoft stigma... But a lot of AA or indie games…

> People tend to be influenced by opinions online but often the real world is completely different. Unfortunately, my experience has been that C#'s lack of popularity online translates into a lot of misunderstandings about the language and thus many teams simply do not consider it. Some folks still think it's Windows-only. Some folks think you need to use Visual Studio. Some think it's too hard to learn. Lots of misc…

> Some folks think you need to use Visual Studio

How's the LSP support nowadays? I remember reading a lot of complaints about how badly done the LSP is compared to Visual Studio.

Re: Migrating away from Rust

#175
post #14

The article title is half-true. It wasn't so much they migrated away from Rust, but that they migrated away from Bevy, which is an alpha quality game engine. I wouldn't have read the article if it'd been labeled that, so kudos to the blog writer, I guess.

What are some non-alpha quality Rust game engines? If the answer is "there are none", then I'd say the title is accurate.

Re: Migrating away from Rust

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The advantages of correctness, memory safety, and a rich type system are worth something, but I expect it's a lot less when you're up against the value of a whole game design ecosystem with tools, assets, modules, examples, documentation, and ChatGPT right there to tell you how it all fits together. Perhaps someday there will be a comparable game engine written in Rust, but it would probably take a major commercial s…

One of the challenges I never quite got over completely, was that I was always fighting rust fundamentals, which tells me I never fully assimilated into thinking like a rustacean. This was more of a me-problem, but I was constantly having to change my strategy to avoid fighting the borrow-checker, manage references, etc. In any case, it was a productivity sink.

I bet, and that's particularly difficult when so much of modern game dev is just repeating extremely well-worn patterns— moving entities around and providing for scripted and emergent interactions between those entities and the player(s).

That's not to say that games aren't a very cool space to be in, but the challenges have moved beyond the code. Particularly in the indie space, for 10+ years it's been all about story, characters, writing, artwork, visual identity, sound and music design, pacing, unique gameplay mechanics, etc. If you're making a game in 2025 and the hard part is the code, then you're almost certainly doing it wrong.

Re: Migrating away from Rust

#177
post #79

The "Learning" point drives home a concern my brother-in-law and I were talking about recently. As LLMs become more entrenched as a tool, they may inevitably become the crutch that actually holds back innovation. Individuals and teams may be hesitant to explore or adopt bleeding edge technologies specifically because LLMs don't know about them or don't know enough about them yet.

I have that worry as well, but it may not be as bad as I feared. I am currently developing a Python serialization/deserialization library based on advanced multiple dispatch, so it is fairly different from how existing libraries work. Nonetheless, if I ask LLMs (using Cursor) to write new functionality or plugins within my framework, they are surprisingly adept at it, even with limited guidance. I expect it'll only get better in the next few years. Perhaps a set of AI directives and examples for new technologies would suffice.

In any case, there has always been a strong bias towards established technologies that have a lot of available help online. LLMs will remain better at using them, but as long as they are not completely useless on new technologies, they will also help enthusiasts and early adopters work with them and fill in the gaps.

Re: Migrating away from Rust

#178

This comment might not be liked by the usual commenters in these threads, but I think it is worth stressing: First: I have experience with Bevy and other game engine frameworks; including Unreal. And I consider myself a seasoned Rust, C etc developer. I could sympathize with what was stated by the author. I think the issue here is (mainly) Bevy. It is just not even close to the standard yet (if ever). It is hard for…

Imo the place for rust in game dev isnt in games at all, but base libraries and tools. Writing your proc generation library in rust that is an isolated package you can call in isolation, or similar is where its useful.

I agree. [Unless fully adopted by a serious game engine, of course.] Rust's "superpower" is substituting critical C++ code in-place, with the goal of ensuring correctness and soundness. And increasing the development velocity as a result.

Re: Migrating away from Rust

#179
post #79

The "Learning" point drives home a concern my brother-in-law and I were talking about recently. As LLMs become more entrenched as a tool, they may inevitably become the crutch that actually holds back innovation. Individuals and teams may be hesitant to explore or adopt bleeding edge technologies specifically because LLMs don't know about them or don't know enough about them yet.

I've noticed this effect even with well established tech but just in degrees of popularity. I've recently been working on a Swift/SwiftUI project and the experience with LLM's compared to something like web dev stuff with React, etc is noticeably different/worse which I mostly attribute to there probably being at least 20 times less Swift specific content on the web in comparison.

Re: Migrating away from Rust

#180
post #79

The "Learning" point drives home a concern my brother-in-law and I were talking about recently. As LLMs become more entrenched as a tool, they may inevitably become the crutch that actually holds back innovation. Individuals and teams may be hesitant to explore or adopt bleeding edge technologies specifically because LLMs don't know about them or don't know enough about them yet.

Is that different from what is happening already? A lot of people won't adopt a language/technology unless it has a huge repository of answers on StackOverflow, mature tooling, and a decent hiring pool.

I'm not saying you're definitely wrong, but if you think that LLMs are going to bring qualitative change rather than just another thing to consider, then I'm interested in why.

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