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Rules for Negotiating a Job Offer (2016)

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Re: Rules for Negotiating a Job Offer (2016)

#171

Unless you're in like the top 1% in your field, there is no negotiation. Must be nice I guess.

Yea, I kind of think a lot of these "Just negotiate, bro" posts are from people who are extremely strong candidates already, like they invented the entire field that the company plays in. Or their PhD thesis was on the exact thing the company is trying to do. For the rest of us, companies can take us or leave us--they aren't going to get into some bidding war for some generic, but strong senior skilled candidate.

It's not just for "elite" devs.

For my second real job I did not feel I was an "extremely strong candidate", just a mildly above-average one. I crushed the coding portion of the interview, but that balanced against my unspectacular CV and lack of experience in the company's field. I read the linked article, applied the principles as best I could: I got £10k more than what they offered first.

Mind you, this was during peak ZIRP so I was probably playing on easy mode and didn't know it.

Re: Rules for Negotiating a Job Offer (2016)

#172
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When given the range, overshoot the max so they can negotiate you down close to the max.

"Why do we need a candidate that can't read or do basic math?" Also, usually the high bound is set to catch desperate overqualifieds into the job competing process, not to be actually paid. YMMV, speaking from experience in non-US job market culture.

It's not about the basic math but negotiating if they can do better, also saying that they shouldn't even bother proposing you something in the lower part of the range.

I deal with non-US shops as well, it is surprising how many of them can and do pay US rates when asked.

Re: Rules for Negotiating a Job Offer (2016)

#173
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know why a listener wouldn't think it's for real? A new job can involve relocation, or if it's in the same city, prevent the spouse from a desired relocation. Not to mention people do tend to evaluate major life decisions with trusted friends etc. Discuss whether to job-hop now or wait to see if something better shows up in six months. I'm intrigued by your perspective that someone would assume this was non-l…

Of course most married people considering a job offer would discuss it, but that doesn't mean the person making the claim isn't actually just using a delaying tactic. (For example, maybe they already discussed it with their spouse. Or they're going to discuss it in the next hour, but they are saying this when their goal is to effectively delay for a week.) That's just one example of commonplace lying. A lot of people…

> Of course most married people considering a job offer would discuss it, but that doesn't mean the person making the claim isn't actually just using a delaying tactic.

I'm a very bad negotiator, but perhaps because of this I understand that it often doesn't matter what they believe. What truly matter is whether your excuse is plausible enough. If they can make it seem like you are a bullshitter then they will win. To counter this tactic you need to find a way to make it impossible for them to dismiss your need for time.

Think of legitimate reasons to discuss their offer with your friends or your spouse beforehand, and prepare the strong arguments. This way you will make it clear that it is not a "cultural thing, not to be taken literally", and how could you sound as a bullshitter if you genuinely intend discuss it with your spouse or friends?

They can still believe that you are just buying time, but it doesn't matter if they have no polite way to challenge you.

> A lot of people will openly lie, and think that's normal.

I do not lie. I hate to lie. But I can bend the truth a little. For instance, if it is me who making a decision and I plan advice from my friends, I still can decide that I will not accept any offer without discussing it with them. It is a true decision and I do not lie when stating it openly. I just need to be careful with wording to avoid revealing the full truth. Moreover if I need to I can disclose the truth, and explain then that I did mistakes in the past by not taking time to think. Now I strictly adhere to the rule of discussing significant decisions with friends before making them. I can even share a true story about a poor decision I made.

If I have no such a story, I can refer to a book on negotiation, explain that I agree that big decisions need to be weighted carefully, and assert that I won't make any decisions without talking with my friends first. Just stress it, and if it comes to it, be ready to politely decline their offer because you need time to think.

I'll reiterate: it doesn't matter do they believe you, what is matter if they have no polite way to pressure you while sticking to the rules of polite conversation. I hate to lie, so I imposing one more constraint: I must believe what I'm saying. But that's all.

> But not all people are like that, and don't want to hire corporate-standard liars.

Perhaps. I hadn't considered that. However they are likely a minority, and it will be hard to find some of them and to impress them by your anti-corporate-politics stance in a way that leads to immediate hiring. I suspect that even if you do find some, they will take full advantage of your refusal to engage in corporate negotiation tactics. It is sad, I know. The world is unfair.

Re: Rules for Negotiating a Job Offer (2016)

#174
post #155
post #48

I looked for resources a few years ago and found a post by a software engineer talking about "Fearless Salary Negotiation" [1]. The engineer said: "it's a small book, cost me around 40 bucks which were immediately compensated by the fact that I managed to negotiate a higher salary". I wanted to ask for a raise: I had been working in that startup for 4 years and had never had a raise. I thought "if that book helps me…

One lesson is that you have to be willing to walk away. Doesn't mean you can't negotiate at all otherwise. But you're in the strongest position when you legitimately can go "take it or leave it" if it comes to that. And you also don't want to throw away a great opportunity because you didn't wring every last dollar out of it.

> One lesson is that you have to be willing to walk away.

That's probably because I did not explain it well enough. I can tell you the lesson, because it is impact it had on me :-).

I was already willing to walk away and was about to. I found the book by chance, in something like a random HN discussion. Without the book I would have resigned without asking for a raise, I know it.

Then I got a few lessons about the way I should prepare for asking for the raise, and the big mistakes I should not make ("don't say this", which seems obvious when you read it, but which I would have done wrong).

Finally it helped me talk about salaries when I was interviewing for other jobs. Again, difficult to say if I would have ended up with a lower salary without the book, but it most definitely gave me the confidence to talk about compensation, and I think it's worth more than the $40 of the book.

Re: Rules for Negotiating a Job Offer (2016)

#175
post #48

I looked for resources a few years ago and found a post by a software engineer talking about "Fearless Salary Negotiation" [1]. The engineer said: "it's a small book, cost me around 40 bucks which were immediately compensated by the fact that I managed to negotiate a higher salary". I wanted to ask for a raise: I had been working in that startup for 4 years and had never had a raise. I thought "if that book helps me…

Just understanding how negotiations work removes the frustration. I read a book about negotiating. It had the usual breakdown of strategies, tactics and scenarios, and a lot of filler, but it was entertaining to read. Today I'm still not a good negotiator. Normally I just don't want to waste my time and just want to get something, or I don't want to "squeeze" the other side for little profit. But I know that on big k…

> or I don't want to "squeeze" the other side for little profit.

That's exactly how I feel! That's why I believe it is important to understand the process. When you negotiate with a company, you're not squeezing the other side for profit. They just won't accept anything unreasonable. But in case they want to squeeze you (which is likely), then you should defend yourself.

Re: Rules for Negotiating a Job Offer (2016)

#176
post #48

I looked for resources a few years ago and found a post by a software engineer talking about "Fearless Salary Negotiation" [1]. The engineer said: "it's a small book, cost me around 40 bucks which were immediately compensated by the fact that I managed to negotiate a higher salary". I wanted to ask for a raise: I had been working in that startup for 4 years and had never had a raise. I thought "if that book helps me…

While that has worked for me too, I find that negotiating by resignation isn't going to address other issues such as those that bolster the unfair salary. Yes. You got what you wanted, but now they know you played a wildcard and they want you gone on their terms. Or they want to extract the maximum work from you.

Just to be clear: my point is not that the book taught me to negotiate by resignation :-). The book gave me confidence to negotiate, and I did not even mention resigning as part of the negotiation. Only after the negotiation (a few days later), I chose to resign because of the result of the negotiation (which was therefore a failure).

What the book brought to me confidence: I would have resigned without asking for a raise, saying "well it's time for me to move on" and not "I'm leaving because of the salary". Hence my boss would not have made an offer.

The book also helped me understand how salary negotiation works, and how it is "normal": the recruiter does it all the time, they are used to it, and you may actually look more professional if you know how to talk about compensation than if you just accept whatever they say like a junior.

> but now they know you played a wildcard and they want you gone on their terms. Or they want to extract the maximum work from you.

Not at all, in my case :-).

Re: Rules for Negotiating a Job Offer (2016)

#177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Midwest, not Silicon Valley, but that's my current experience. I've already got a job and just got an offer which would be a small pay cut. So, I told them I'm excited about the work, etc but I just can't take a pay cut. They remained firm that they couldn't budge on salary even a little. Then remained firm as I asked for a signing bonus (denied) and reduced hours (denied). This company doesn't do stock at all and th…

Can agree that right now the market is tough. Some years ago there were job posts left and right, salaries were high and hiring was smooth - now there are comparatively fewer jobs posted, salaries are almost half of what it was before, and many don't even write back. Many companies are even turning away from remote work. It used to be very doable to find a job in the US from Europe, now everyone is demanding you have…

> is demanding you have work authorization

This was also my observation. Everyone is talking about "outsourcing" but what I am seeing is work-authorization required everywhere. I wonder if this is a legal change that restricts them because it works against their negotiation power.

Re: Rules for Negotiating a Job Offer (2016)

#178

Based on the website, was this published in 2016? The job market in 2016 is unrecognizable to anyone who has had to look for a job recently. It is absolutely brutal out there right now, and this feels a bit detached from reality.

Conditions change. Sometimes you have to tread very carefully, but even then a soft negotiation check is usually worth it. My 2c.

Re: Rules for Negotiating a Job Offer (2016)

#179
post #48

I looked for resources a few years ago and found a post by a software engineer talking about "Fearless Salary Negotiation" [1]. The engineer said: "it's a small book, cost me around 40 bucks which were immediately compensated by the fact that I managed to negotiate a higher salary". I wanted to ask for a raise: I had been working in that startup for 4 years and had never had a raise. I thought "if that book helps me…

I'd say in almost all companies, no other approach works except this. Every other approach is basically wasting each other's time and energy.

In fact for most people, don't even bother, just find a new job.

If you super like the work at your current company, the way I'd roll is:

- work hard in a way that also builds new skills, and get recognized for your performance, widely (and add everyone to LinkedIn, you never know who might be moving on next to somewhere that needs more hires)

- At 2 years absolute limit: "I think I'm senior now" or whatever is next level, or "my salary isn't aligned with market" - at least give them opportunity

- They blah blah. Don't protest, politely nod and let the meeting end.

- You then, depending on your bank balance and risk appetite, either say the next day "ok I need to move on to pursue other opportunities" and resign, or start reaching out to your network for a new job the very same day they do their blah blah

(Goes without saying that saving up a big bank balance is the most important negotiating tool, but catch-22 and all that)

NB: I might add one other technique that can get overlooked: timing. The best time to ultimatum is when the counterparty is least capable of dealing with it. So if you wait until the person who has to decide if you'll get what you want is having an absolutely shit month, e.g. several other people have left recently, or they are bogged down in some other pain, they're far more likely to give in. And due to the ebbs and flows of business, those ebbs will always show up from time to time.

Re: Rules for Negotiating a Job Offer (2016)

#180
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know why a listener wouldn't think it's for real? A new job can involve relocation, or if it's in the same city, prevent the spouse from a desired relocation. Not to mention people do tend to evaluate major life decisions with trusted friends etc. Discuss whether to job-hop now or wait to see if something better shows up in six months. I'm intrigued by your perspective that someone would assume this was non-l…

Of course most married people considering a job offer would discuss it, but that doesn't mean the person making the claim isn't actually just using a delaying tactic. (For example, maybe they already discussed it with their spouse. Or they're going to discuss it in the next hour, but they are saying this when their goal is to effectively delay for a week.) That's just one example of commonplace lying. A lot of people…

That's interesting, I'd never thought of it from the perspective of lying. Thanks.

It's funny, because I don't really consider making statements about what I plan to do in the future lies.

Like, if I promise someone I'll do something for them or do something important to them and I know I won't, that's a lie.

But if I'm just sharing a plan or a personal need... I don't see that as a lie. My plans and needs change by minute. I can decide to discuss something with my spouse, then change my mind. To me, it falls under the category of personal autonomy. Frankly it's not even a company's business why I need more time, and if they want a reason to give it to me, and I give them a reason about needing to discuss it, I'm free to change my mind immediately afterwards without telling them. And that being the case, it makes no difference what my reason for needing time actually was.

Also, remember that they're the ones telling you they have a 48h deadline in the first place. Isn't that a lie, too? But you're not going to judge them for extending that for you, because it's in your interest. Same way they won't judge you for your reason for needing more time, because they want to hire you.

I don't know. I just think it's hard to call these things lies when they're merely stating intent, which is constantly changing. But I appreciate your perspective! It comes from a different moral worldview, which is important to recognize.

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