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Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

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Re: Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

#171

Post by CodeMage »

paulddraper wrote: post #152
robotresearcher wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The personal force-field shield was clever too. Removes bullets from the story, in favor of martial arts.

Force-field was innovative. Every other fantasy-type movie in a modern setting I cannot take seriously...Avengers, Harry Potter, Star Wars, etc. Like, just use a gun. Whatever you were going to attack with, put that in a gun, and attack at 45rpm, 3000 ft/s.

> Every other fantasy-type movie in a modern setting I cannot take seriously...Avengers, Harry Potter, Star Wars, etc.

> Like, just use a gun. Whatever you were going to attack with, put that in a gun, and attack at 45rpm, 3000 ft/s.

This is one of the many reasons why I like the Dresden Files universe. Wizards wield incredible power, but a wizard can still be brought down by a sniper.

Re: Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

#172

Post by DavidVoid »

mtillman wrote: post #30
alabastervlog wrote: post #2

When I finally got around to reading Seven Pillars , I wasn't too far in before I was convinced Herbert had the book on his desk the whole time he was writing Dune . So many minor similarities, little scenes that don't quite match up but if you squint they do. Even the arc toward eventually committing war crimes, while seeking some great end for the people he's leading, feels like a connection. But also little stuff…

Related Herbert audio interview on the origins of Dune. Sorry it’s a YouTube link. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=A-mLVVJkH7I

The part of that interview that's stuck with me after I listened to this last year was his comments about the feudal system (at around 38:30 [1]).

So, tribal organisation is a natural organisation of humankind. We tend to fall into it, given any chance at all, given the proper stresses, or given the proper lack of stresses.

[1]: https://youtu.be/A-mLVVJkH7I?t=2314

Re: Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

#173

Post by zaphirplane »

corry wrote: post #109

I'm 100% onboard with the 'Lawrence of Arabia inspired Dune' theory but I think one of the cleverest things Herbert did with Dune is to introduce a 'visionary substance' (spice) into the otherwise austere Islamic-adjacent motif. He not only shrouded the spice in ritual and religion (which isn't THAT suprising considering many human societies used visionary substsances, and Herbert was a child of the 1960s psychedelic…

My memory of the book is faded and relying on the recent movie. Why is the rebellion in your opinion Islam like. Dethroned prince, lost prince, rebellion against colonization, empire mining a colony are very much a common trope

Re: Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

#174

Post by paulddraper »

KineticLensman wrote: post #159
paulddraper wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Force-field was innovative. Every other fantasy-type movie in a modern setting I cannot take seriously...Avengers, Harry Potter, Star Wars, etc. Like, just use a gun. Whatever you were going to attack with, put that in a gun, and attack at 45rpm, 3000 ft/s.

> Force-field was innovative. Yes, although the shields were fudged somewhat to allow knife fights. It would also seem that mankind lost the ancient secrets of body armour. > Like, just use a gun. Whatever you were going to attack with, put that in a gun, and attack at 45rpm, 3000 ft/s. There was even one Dr Who episode where the Daleks replaced their beam weapons with machine guns [0]. Although only because there wa…

> although the shields were fudged somewhat to allow knife fights

Right. Shields can protect against high velocity things, e.g. bullets or shrapnel. But not slow moving things, e.g. air and hands.

This contrivance means ancient weapons still have a purpose.

This effect is similar to non-Newtonian fluids. (In fact, there has been research into using non-Newtonian fluids for body armor [1].)

---

> It would also seem that mankind lost the ancient secrets of body armour.

There are a few instances of armor in the movies (Harkonnens, Leo Atreides and Gurney Halleck, one of Paul Atreides' visions), but the books make virtually no mention of it.

The in-universe explanation is that the fighting style was much closer to ninjas than knights. Which means light-to-no armor was preferred.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_armor

Re: Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

#175

Post by Loughla »

foobarchu wrote: post #148
macartain wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plus he also had the smarts to use plausible mechanisms to remove advanced computers (the Butlerian Jihad) and nuclear weapons (some sort of extreme taboo based on a historical event IIRC? it's been a while..) from the technologies available to the Dune universe. This allowed the exploration of all sorts of human developmental possibilities - the Bene Gesserit and mentats, advanced schools of martial art and mental d…

Nuclear weapons exist and are used, they call them atomics. I believe they are used to break into the city in the first book. The big taboo seems to be using them against people.

It's less a taboo and more about MAD. The superpowers can't use them against each other, because then they'll get attacked by other superpowers sort of thing.

Re: Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

#176

Post by dxf »

paulddraper wrote: post #174
KineticLensman wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Force-field was innovative. Yes, although the shields were fudged somewhat to allow knife fights. It would also seem that mankind lost the ancient secrets of body armour. > Like, just use a gun. Whatever you were going to attack with, put that in a gun, and attack at 45rpm, 3000 ft/s. There was even one Dr Who episode where the Daleks replaced their beam weapons with machine guns [0]. Although only because there wa…

> although the shields were fudged somewhat to allow knife fights Right. Shields can protect against high velocity things, e.g. bullets or shrapnel. But not slow moving things, e.g. air and hands. This contrivance means ancient weapons still have a purpose. This effect is similar to non-Newtonian fluids. (In fact, there has been research into using non-Newtonian fluids for body armor [1].) --- > It would also seem th…

Bret Devereaux has an interesting writeup on "The Problem with Sci Fi Body Armor" and discusses the Dune movie in detail.

https://acoup.blog/2024/11/29/collections-the-problem-with-s...

Re: Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

#177

Post by renjimen »

Lawrence of Arabia may be the influence of the character, but the Nabataeans, of Petra fame, are surely the main influence of the Fremen. (excuse the LLM summary)

Economic Foundation

- Nabataeans controlled lucrative frankincense and myrrh trade routes

- Fremen controlled the essential spice melange on Arrakis

- Both commodities were incredibly valuable and strategic resources

- Trade of these rare substances provided economic and political leverage

Desert Survival

- Both expertly adapted to harsh desert environments

- Developed advanced water conservation techniques

- Created hidden settlements (Fremen seeches/Nabataean rock-carved cities like Petra)

Social Structure

- Egalitarian approach to gender roles

- Women in significant leadership positions

- Tribal hierarchies based on skill and contribution

- Strong communal survival ethos

Trade and Resistance

- Controlled strategic resources in challenging terrain

- Maintained independence through economic and military strength

- Used desert environment as defensive advantage

- Resisted external imperial powers

Technological Adaptation

- Innovative survival technologies

- Deep understanding of ecological context

- Specialized equipment for desert survival

- Advanced navigational and trading skills

Re: Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

#178

Post by pertymcpert »

KineticLensman wrote: post #159
paulddraper wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Force-field was innovative. Every other fantasy-type movie in a modern setting I cannot take seriously...Avengers, Harry Potter, Star Wars, etc. Like, just use a gun. Whatever you were going to attack with, put that in a gun, and attack at 45rpm, 3000 ft/s.

> Force-field was innovative. Yes, although the shields were fudged somewhat to allow knife fights. It would also seem that mankind lost the ancient secrets of body armour. > Like, just use a gun. Whatever you were going to attack with, put that in a gun, and attack at 45rpm, 3000 ft/s. There was even one Dr Who episode where the Daleks replaced their beam weapons with machine guns [0]. Although only because there wa…

The fields didn't fully allow knife fights. High speed impacts the shield would repel but slow but strong movements with a knife could penetrate it. The way the movie at least justified disabling the shields was that the Fremen were seen to use laser weapons which in the Dune universe would cause a mini nuclear explosion if they hit a shield.

Re: Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

#179

Post by unholyguy001 »

theturtletalks wrote: post #22

Frank Herbert said him self in an interview that Dune was inspired from Sabres of Paradise by Lesley Blanch and that book is the story of Imam Shamil of the north caucasus.

I read Sabres of Paradise and it absolutely had a lot of parallels with Dune, and was a major source. Good book too

Re: Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

#180

Post by squigz »

lynx97 wrote: post #86
softwaredoug wrote: post #10

There’s even a part at the beginning of Lawrence of Arabia film where he puts out a match with his fingers, and throughout, Lawrence proves his ability to overcome pain. Very reminiscent of the Gom Jabar.

Wait, is putting out a match with your fingers a superpower these days? I can do that very easily, and it barely hits a 2 on the 0-10 pain-scale.

Weird brag but yes, I would guess most people would not just tank putting out a match with their fingers. I suppose it might depend on the match though. The big wooden ones would probably hurt more than the thin little ones that don't light half the time
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