Live data from Hacker News

A new proposal for how mind emerges from matter

noemamag.com

171–180 of 240 posts

Re: A new proposal for how mind emerges from matter

#171
post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious about aphantasia - if I asked you to draw a floorplan of your home/office etc. would you not be able to do it? If you could wouldn't that involve you imagining what the building looks like from the inside and how the rooms are connected together? Or would do it some other way? (I'm assuming you could do it, since if you couldn't I think that would be a majorly debiliating condition rather than just some a…

Yes, in fact my ability to draw from memory places I've seen is, if anything, from experience, substantially above average. However, when I draw from memory, my drawings do tend to be more stylized. I can "imagine" what a building looks like, but I can't see it. Even our language makes this hard to describe, and the reason why I didn't realise that this isn't how other people do it, because most of our language for r…

You have probably heard this before but this is really bizarre and fascinating to someone like me who writes difficult words correctly because I see them (visualize the word) in my head and judge if they look right. It is like it all has to be visual for it to make any sense.

As a molecular biologist I often deal with minute quantities of substances in small containers, but I just picture them there, the molecules, what happens to them as I dilute a sample or add some enzyme. Reading a book is like watching it play out.

I have a colleague who is also much more text oriented. I really wondered how she can function without seeing all the departments in an overview and the connections between them, and how governance structures overlap with those departments, etc. For me it's a lot to hold in, overwhelming at times. But she's absolutely great in these types of things, just masterful, very structured as well. Her mind must be very alien to me, I always wonder what her experience of life looks like (or not "looks like", apparently... But how it is to her...)

Re: A new proposal for how mind emerges from matter

#172
post #24

Maybe the definition of what "intelligence" is could be sharpened by having a look at LLMs and "traditional" computer programs and asking what exactly the difference between the two is. Almost all the traditional criteria of intelligence - reasoning, planning, decisionmaking, memory etc - are exhibited pretty trivially by standard computer programs. Nevertheless no one would think of them as "intelligent" in the sens…

The only proof of intelligence that humans accept are where they are utterly dominated by the more intelligent “thing.”

In my experience it comes down to speed of processing and response

Nobody views trees as intelligent because despite having extremely complex interdependencies with their ecology, including fungus and all kinds of other organisms, they don’t move quickly or appear to respond to input (even though they do, just slowly).

Meanwhile the mantis shrimp because of it speed, superhuman vision and flexibility is considered extremely intelligent.

The only thing that humans will accept as more intelligent than them is (something) that they cannot control and can dominate them.

This is why AI is “the things we haven’t done yet” - once a technology is pervasive and integrated it is “just computing.”

Re: A new proposal for how mind emerges from matter

#173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is, if you read it. > Which brings us to the most striking idea — that some types of electrical oscillations could mediate an experience of self. > In 2021, Hanson found that similar electrical activity — spontaneous low-frequency oscillations — is evident across many different organisms, from E. coli to humans. She concluded that across a diverse range of creatures, the oscillations may have a shared function:…

If I were to say this is just a coincidence, how would you respond? If it’s not: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01676... If everything is pulsing with electricity and they are syncing to something global … From the paper: Examples of biological systems that have been modeled using PCOs include cardiac pacemakers [2], crickets that chirp in unison [3], and rhythmic flashing of fireflies [4]

> If I were to say this is just a coincidence, how would you respond?

I'd say you probably don't know enough to say that with such certainty, and should probably avoid jumping to conclusions lest you be Dunning-Krugered.

I would then encourage you to ask ChatGPT something like: "How are SELFOS (Spontaneous electrical low-frequency oscillations) different to PCOs (pulse-coupled oscillators)".

Tl;dr - SELFOs and PCOs aren't the same.

Re: A new proposal for how mind emerges from matter

#174
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a linguist, article like this also annoy me by the claims that "X [whales, dolphins, parrots, crows...] uses language." We have known since 1957 that there is a hierarchy of "grammars", with finite state "languages" being near the bottom, and transformational grammars at the top. Human languages are certainly at a minimum at the context free phrase structure grammar level. My point is that by using the word "langu…

As a scientist, articles like this also annoy me. Because it, right off the bat, assumes that there are no degrees in consciousness. Just because we don't experience those degrees, and animals can't convey what they feel through language, we assume it is "emergent", or "suddenly there". I think we are too caught up in believing that consciousness must be something really special or some magic discontinuity of spaceti…

> We do attribute great value to organisms that have this image of self.

My impression is we attribute great value to organisms that can effectively push back against us.

respect based on force.

Not saying I want things to be that way.

Re: A new proposal for how mind emerges from matter

#177
post #24

Maybe the definition of what "intelligence" is could be sharpened by having a look at LLMs and "traditional" computer programs and asking what exactly the difference between the two is. Almost all the traditional criteria of intelligence - reasoning, planning, decisionmaking, memory etc - are exhibited pretty trivially by standard computer programs. Nevertheless no one would think of them as "intelligent" in the sens…

We need to break the concept of "intelligence" down into more well defined components, probably.

Re: A new proposal for how mind emerges from matter

#178

Articles like this annoy me: it seems to want to comment on philosophy of mind, but shows zero awareness of the classic debates in that discipline - materialism vs idealism vs dualism vs neutral monism, and the competing versions of each of those, e.g. substance dualism vs hylemorphic dualism, eliminativist vs reductionist/emergentist materialism, property dualism, epiphenomenalism, panpsychism, Chalmers’ distinction…

So, I think you' are wrong about this: the article is discussing a change in perspective that would largely make the classic debates in philosophy of mind irrelevant in the same way that heliocentrism made classic debates within the geocentric paradigm (about epicycles, and such) irrelevant. Highly worthwhile, if insufficiently in-depth.

Re: A new proposal for how mind emerges from matter

#179
post #24

Maybe the definition of what "intelligence" is could be sharpened by having a look at LLMs and "traditional" computer programs and asking what exactly the difference between the two is. Almost all the traditional criteria of intelligence - reasoning, planning, decisionmaking, memory etc - are exhibited pretty trivially by standard computer programs. Nevertheless no one would think of them as "intelligent" in the sens…

I wouldn't say that's true at all for traditional computer programs. They're doing explicitly what they are designed to do, there is no adaptation/learning.

You can construct a "computer" that learns and adapts with some matchboxes and buttons.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matchbox_Educable_Noughts_and_...

I wouldn't say that's more "intelligent" than, I don't know, a workplace scheduling system.

Re: A new proposal for how mind emerges from matter

#180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I were to say this is just a coincidence, how would you respond? If it’s not: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01676... If everything is pulsing with electricity and they are syncing to something global … From the paper: Examples of biological systems that have been modeled using PCOs include cardiac pacemakers [2], crickets that chirp in unison [3], and rhythmic flashing of fireflies [4]

> If I were to say this is just a coincidence, how would you respond? I'd say you probably don't know enough to say that with such certainty, and should probably avoid jumping to conclusions lest you be Dunning-Krugered. I would then encourage you to ask ChatGPT something like: "How are SELFOS (Spontaneous electrical low-frequency oscillations) different to PCOs (pulse-coupled oscillators)". Tl;dr - SELFOs and PCOs a…

[deleted]
Post reply on HN