Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Signal to leave Sweden if backdoor law passes

swedenherald.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

171–180 of 283 posts

Re: Signal to leave Sweden if backdoor law passes

#171

Post by pmontra »

lupusreal wrote: post #142
tuukkah wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also only possible because we use Signal as compiled by themselves and not by trusted third parties from a source kept clean of any future client-side backdoors. The client is open source, right? https://github.com/signalapp (Reproducible builds is a cool technique.)

Yes, this is part of the problem. Application developers and the packagers should be distinct unrelated entities to reduce the chance of a malicious update being pushed to users if the developer sells out. F-Droid and Debian/etc show how this is done.

That does not solve the problem. A country can forbid F-Droid and Debian and anything else that is not in a short list of vetted app stores that comply with the law of that country to backdoor everything.

Re: Signal to leave Sweden if backdoor law passes

#172

Post by adamc »

Braxton1980 wrote: post #136
hedora wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s no warrant protection in this bill. They want to keep a copy of everyone’s data so they can look back at old stuff after the fact. Even if there was warrant protection, I’d still be against it. People have traditionally had the right to speak to each other without giving a transcript to the police. I think it’s unreasonable to make that illegal.

Testimony under oath can be compelled

In theory. In reality, no. "I don't remember/I don't recall" is a famous dodge.

Re: Signal to leave Sweden if backdoor law passes

#173

Post by hellcow »

dijit wrote: post #76
tuukkah wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also only possible because we use Signal as compiled by themselves and not by trusted third parties from a source kept clean of any future client-side backdoors. The client is open source, right? https://github.com/signalapp (Reproducible builds is a cool technique.)

I have unpopular opinions about this, because Signal has been so hostile to anyone other than Signal themselves being involved. But to be specific: "open source" claims go out the window when they're; 1. Not reproducible (before anyone links me to the "reproducible steps" please actually read them because they tell you directly that they will not create a reproducible output). 2. Able to hide development of mobilecoi…

I’m throwing a +1 your way. Hiding development for a year to launch a get-rich-quick coin isn’t the way a trustworthy FOSS organization should behave.

As someone who got their whole network to switch to Signal before that happened, it was absolutely disgusting watching that all play out.

Re: Signal to leave Sweden if backdoor law passes

#174

Post by pmontra »

Braxton1980 wrote: post #136
hedora wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s no warrant protection in this bill. They want to keep a copy of everyone’s data so they can look back at old stuff after the fact. Even if there was warrant protection, I’d still be against it. People have traditionally had the right to speak to each other without giving a transcript to the police. I think it’s unreasonable to make that illegal.

Testimony under oath can be compelled

Yes but people can genuinely forget the exact words they spoke time ago, even one minute ago, or a whole conversation. Examples: Who did I talk to yesterday? Did I met that neighbor of mine yesterday or was it the day before? I don't know.

Re: Signal to leave Sweden if backdoor law passes

#175

Post by rangerelf »

Braxton1980 wrote: post #136
hedora wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s no warrant protection in this bill. They want to keep a copy of everyone’s data so they can look back at old stuff after the fact. Even if there was warrant protection, I’d still be against it. People have traditionally had the right to speak to each other without giving a transcript to the police. I think it’s unreasonable to make that illegal.

Testimony under oath can be compelled

They are not the same thing.

Re: Signal to leave Sweden if backdoor law passes

#176

Post by ubermonkey »

louwrentius wrote: post #84
vaylian wrote: post #10

There is a reason why Free Software (as in freedom) was invented: To ensure that those who create the software do not overpower those who use the software. The idea, that companies or politicians can force the user's machine to work against it's owner, is wrong. And it is wrong, because to be a human in the 21st century means in most cases, that your digital devices and your digital interactions are a core part of wh…

It may be wrong, but it proves that technology can't beat politics and policy. The issue with Apple caving to UK demands regarding encryption, and now Signal being in a similar situation, shows that you can't just focus on technology and ignore policy and politics. And you'll find out that a ton of people here on HN will care, but most of the public won't. People should take XKCD 538 really to heart (The 5$ wrench on…

>The issue with Apple caving to UK demands regarding encryption

Apple "caving" would've looked different; in fact, we probably never would have known, given the insidious nature of the underlying statute in the UK.

Apple is making noise about the fact that they pulled the product, and the tech press is making it clear WHY even though Apple itself is legally prohibited from giving any additional context.

I feel like that was probably the best move available to them given the cards dealt. Fighting in secret courts is unlikely to be fruitful.

Re: Signal to leave Sweden if backdoor law passes

#177

Post by tremon »

pmontra wrote: post #171
lupusreal wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this is part of the problem. Application developers and the packagers should be distinct unrelated entities to reduce the chance of a malicious update being pushed to users if the developer sells out. F-Droid and Debian/etc show how this is done.

That does not solve the problem. A country can forbid F-Droid and Debian and anything else that is not in a short list of vetted app stores that comply with the law of that country to backdoor everything.

A sovereign country creating and enforcing domestic laws is not a problem that can be overcome with software.

Re: Signal to leave Sweden if backdoor law passes

#178

Post by lxgr »

TheAmazingRace wrote: post #164
ghaff wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Transacting in Bitcoin is already unattractive to 99%+ of potential users.

In addition, simply taking out the on/off ramps, such as Coinbase, would destroy the utility of cryptocurrency as well, since the grand majority of folks dealing in the stuff are only interested in flipping it for more cash money on the other end by finding the next sucker in the chain. Very few people actually care about the principles of Bitcoin and the like. Maybe the core devs and some very early adopters?

I think a large part of the success of Bitcoin can be explained by the combination: It allows people to say (and even believe!) that they're in it for the ideology, while the real motivation is primarily that of capital gains.

Re: Signal to leave Sweden if backdoor law passes

#179

Post by lolinder »

skybrian wrote: post #117
vaylian wrote: post #10

There is a reason why Free Software (as in freedom) was invented: To ensure that those who create the software do not overpower those who use the software. The idea, that companies or politicians can force the user's machine to work against it's owner, is wrong. And it is wrong, because to be a human in the 21st century means in most cases, that your digital devices and your digital interactions are a core part of wh…

This principle seems out of touch with most people’s reality: products hardly ever do everything you want and often work against you. If someone has a device that doesn’t do what they want and there’s no setting to change its behavior, replacing it is usually the only practical option. (Or if it’s a problem with an app, they might be able to install a different app.) If there is a free software license, it’s of no di…

OP is not out of touch, OP is literally saying that this is happening and that it is a bad thing.

Re: Signal to leave Sweden if backdoor law passes

#180

Post by dylan604 »

the8472 wrote: post #104
marcinzm wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Invading the privacy of one's digital space is a violation that goes as deep as reading someone's diary when we look back and the time when life was more analog. Which police with a warrant can very much do.

That is a significant hurdle. They have to do it for each individual target, show up in person and each case can be contested in court. Scalable surveillance is different, just as scalable weapons are different.

It’s a good thing we have FISA then to protects us from the scalable surveillance. /s
Post reply on HN