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Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

marcan.st

171–180 of 1001 posts

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#171
post #93

Marcan links to an email by Ted Tso'o ( https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/20250208204416.GL1130956@mit.ed... ) that is interesting to read. Although it starts on a polarising note ("thin blue line"), it does a good job of explaining the difficulties that Linux maintainers face and why they make the choices they do. It makes sense to be extremely adversarial about accepting code because they're on the hook for maintaining…

It's also not truthful because many of the Rust maintainers are long time C contributors.

Marcan also linked to this resignation of a Rust Maintainer:

https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/20240828211117.9422-1-wedsonaf@...

which references this fantastic exchange:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WiPp9YEBV0Q&t=1529s

I am not a C person, or a kernel level person, I just watch this from the sideline to learn something every now and then (and for the drama). But this exchange is really stunning to me. It seems so blatantly obvious to me that systematically documenting (in code!) and automatically checking semantic information that is required to correctly use an API is a massive win. But I have encountered this type of resistance (by very smart developers building large systems) in my own much smaller and more trivial context. To some degree, the approach seems to be: "If I never write down what I mean precisely, I won't have to explain why I changed things." A more charitable reading of the resistance is: Adding a new place where the semantics are written down (code, documentation and now type system) gives one more way in which they can be out of sync or subtly inconsistent or overly restrictive.

But yeah, my intuitive reaction to the snippet above is just incredulity at the extreme resistance to precisely encoding your assumptions.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#172
"we were still stuck without DP Alt Mode (a feature which required deep reverse engineering, debugging, and kernel surgery to pull off, and which, if it were to be implemented properly and robustly, would require a major refactor of certain kernel subsystems or perhaps even the introduction of an entirely new subsystem)."

Few maintainers care about the platform in question (to whom it's more a curiosity like maybe 68k), and don't have the hardware to test any submitted patches. It's painful to have to accept code that you can't test (though it may be common in certain parts of the kernel). It's painful to see a bunch of changes for just one random feature on a random platform. It's unclear how the code will affect other platforms, etc.

Now throw in some controversial stuff. The vendor of the platform is Apple and some patches are written in Rust... oh em gee!

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#173
post #145

If Marcan (Hector Martin) is serious about quitting Linux development, he will stop contributing to the project using his Asahi Lina persona as well. Until then this is just empty posturing trying to elicit a reaction from the community.

For anyone who complains, everyone knows.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35234480

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32947939

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33792670

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35251905

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36107998

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35238601

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42990443

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37550189

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36231241

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#174
post #147

This is unfortunate, but before pointing fingers, it's worth putting things into perspective. The linked "thin blue line" message[1] also says this: > One of the things which gets very frustrating from the maintainer's perspective is development teams that are only interested in their pet feature, and we know , through very bitter experience, that 95+% of the time, once the code is accepted, the engineers which contr…

I don't really follow what's objectionable about Ted's email, or why it's being singled out. It matches my experience as an open source maintainer pretty accurately. It's also pretty constructive (it goes on to lay out a plan on how to constructively proceed and make everyone happy).

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#175
post #93

Marcan links to an email by Ted Tso'o ( https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/20250208204416.GL1130956@mit.ed... ) that is interesting to read. Although it starts on a polarising note ("thin blue line"), it does a good job of explaining the difficulties that Linux maintainers face and why they make the choices they do. It makes sense to be extremely adversarial about accepting code because they're on the hook for maintaining…

> And then he can't help himself. After being so reasonable, he throws shade on Rust. Shade that is just unfortunately, just false?

Many discussions online (and offline) suffer from a huge-group of people who just can't stop themselves from making their knee-jerk reactions public, and then not thinking about it more.

I remember the "Filesystem in Rust" video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WiPp9YEBV0Q&t=1529s) where there are people who misunderstand what the "plan" is, and argue against being forced to use Rust in the Kernel, while the speaker is literally standing in front of them and saying "no one will be forced to use Rust in the Kernel".

You can literally shove facts in someone's face, and they won't admit to being wrong or misunderstand, and instead continue to argue against some points whose premise isn't even true.

I personally don't know how to deal with this either, and tend to just leave/stop responding when it becomes clear people aren't looking to collaborate/learn together, but instead just wanna prove their point somehow and that's the most important part for them.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I wonder if the Asahi team is considering simply abandoning linux in favor of something more rust friendly The entire point of Asahi is to run Linux on macOS (edit: on Mac hardware, not macOS). If they did what you’re suggesting it would be a completely different project.

Well, I wonder if this is a good time for people to reconsider what they actually want out of Asahi. Things that I'm sure are on the list are open source, able to run the tools they want (standard gnu userland?), docker, maybe gnome/kde? I am not convinced that the linux kernel specifically is on that list.

Tons of dev workflows nowadays use docker which in practice means they require Linux.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#177
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is every successful product, small, medium, large. I've never ever worked on a big corporate or small personal project and not experienced this. The secret is to have a healthy system for taking in those requests, queueing them by priority, and saying, "you are 117 in the queue, you can make it faster by contributing or by explaining why its higher priority". You can't let feature requests get to you, the moment…

I always tell this story about working with sales at a job where I worked in tech support. Sales would call me up and ask why I hadn't talked to their client about their very important ticket. I would tell them: "I have 5 P1 tickets, 8 P2 tickets, and dozens of P3 tickets. Your ticket is a P3 ticket." They would ask that I change it to a P1. I would. Then they would call me an hour later asking me about the ticket an…

Good for them for at least understanding at that point. The typical response is to say "I get that, I really do—can you move this one to the front of the line for me?" and then maybe a vague threat like "I can talk to your manager if it would help".

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And it sounds like you read just one side of the story, with no background in Linux kernel internals. This is about how C APIs are typically inherently unsafe, Rust people wanting to build safe(r) abstractions on top, and a question of who is responsible for changing what code when it's time to refactor the underlying C API. And yes, marcan is being overly dramatic, though he is not alone in that.

I do not claim a background in Linux kernel internals. I'm a human who has seen teams miscommunicate in the past, and see it now. I'm not sure what I said that drew hostility. It sounds like you agree with me though. The Linux team needs to clearly define the expectation they have for code maintenance from the team trying to upstream Rust code (edit) and the Asahi team needs to acknowledge how/if they can meet those…

Well, stop accusing people who's work you don't know of being wishy-washy.

The challenge is not dictating from high above some criteria; the challenge is discovering the criteria that will let the Linux project continue development as well as can be arranged. This is why you'll hear Linus say it's a learning experience, and not just make proclamation of how things shall be (at this stage).

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#179
Perhaps it is no longer realistic to push such a huge changeset into linux anymore. Could this be solved with some hypervisor layer? That is, a hypervisor doing most of the work (in rust) and a small support layer upstreamed into the kernel? Of course, no actual virtualization is even necessary. Just some kind of ABI to the kernel running underneath.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#180
Two HUGE roadblocks were self-inflicted: adopting a hardware platform that doesn't care about external development (Apple silicon) and a programming language that has almost zero support in the Linux kernel (being the first ever to try to achieve multilanguage Linux kernel development).

The odds were set against the Asahi Linux project from the beginning.

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