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Spaced repetition can allow for infinite recall (2022)

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Re: Spaced repetition can allow for infinite recall (2022)

#171
post #27

Wozniak estimates that you actually get a maximum of~300,000 based on his decades of data, so it seems the simplified model misses some effect and so converges to the wrong total: https://supermemo.guru/wiki/How_much_knowledge_can_human_bra...

Wozniak is incredible, it saddens me that SuperMemo will probably drift into obscurity due to being closed source and the chances of seeing its source code drift away day by day, it took a few years to get anything beyond IE support after that died. I wish to see a FOSS incremental reading application in the very least, such an underrated concept.

> I wish to see a FOSS incremental reading application in the very least, such an underrated concept.

There's an Anki plugin[0] though I know almost nothing about Anki or incremental reading, so I have no idea who good it is.

0:https://ankiweb.net/shared/info/999215520

Re: Spaced repetition can allow for infinite recall (2022)

#172
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did. It gave me absurdly long intervals. It kind of assumed that since I can remember some things easily (usually because I learned them outside of Anki), it totally makes sense to assume that about everything. I tried anki multiple times, ended up disliking it each time. FSRF did not made it better.

In my experience, the long intervals can freak you out at the beginning. You might think that it's just stupid and not possible to have that long intervals ("I will remember that in 3 years!?"). But in practice long intervals are shortened when you answer wrong once or more, or when you mark the answer as "hard" when it actually takes time for you to recall a card. For me FSRF really work well, sometimes I see cards…

The big interval was something like 3-6 months. Mostly 3 months, but some had 6.

I just concluded I am better off without algorithm that assumes once I have seen a word on flashcard once, it is reasonable to see it next time in months.

Re: Spaced repetition can allow for infinite recall (2022)

#173
post #35

I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but: of all the really brilliant people I've ever met, interacted with or learned from, I haven't heard of anyone that used techniques like this. Like, the way they learn things and become brilliant is the exact same way every brilliant person has done it for thousands of years: they read books, they discuss and debate with other brilliant people, they study their subjects and…

Fully agree.

Commenters who argue with you, suggesting that discussion is repetition, miss one thing: associativity of memory.

Discussing material, reading something tangential or in another aspect of the subject, all that makes more associations, not just simply repeat the same fact.

I had tried that 20 years ago learning a new language: after ~300 words, my brain could recall every word in the cards, but not in real text. At some point I looked a word in a dictionary, then vaguely remembered that I had looked it up earlier. And a minute later recalled that I had a similar word in the cards -- I browsed through them and found it, and guess what, repeating by the cards, I named it very easily (I guess, brain learns any cues, like cursive writing features, and cuts every corner). But this knowledge never transferred to the real language practice (at the time I was starting to write and say something sensible).

I remember taking driving exam, the theoretical test. You're given 20 questions with pictures and a question whether or not you can do a particular maneuver. Some groupmates just rote-repeated the entire 800-question set of last year's test multiple times (and learned the pictures rather than their meaning).

I instead did the homework: analyzed the entire rulebook, and where rules were irregular and chaotic, organized them in tables to bring any kind of system to this. And then I had no troubles remembering those single rules. Also, I made myself a checklist for the picture questions, what to look at -- are there lights (which have priority over signs), is there a tram (has priority, and changes passing order), and so on.

The pictures in the real test were re-drawn in different style, and sure some folks couldn't load the right answer from their brain and failed the test. One of them told me "You're so smart" (probably implying that I simply have much more RAM in the brain, which isn't true). That was pleasure to ears, but I didn't try memorizing the material at all, and knew very little of it beforehand.

Re: Spaced repetition can allow for infinite recall (2022)

#174
post #43
post #35

I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but: of all the really brilliant people I've ever met, interacted with or learned from, I haven't heard of anyone that used techniques like this. Like, the way they learn things and become brilliant is the exact same way every brilliant person has done it for thousands of years: they read books, they discuss and debate with other brilliant people, they study their subjects and…

How do you think that "working hard" bit works and produces results? Repetition! If you're learning a language and trying to learn vocabulary, a new alphabet, etc, anything that involves lots of recall being necessary, spaced repetition is an excellent aid because without the basic shit you can't do any of the rest. Plus it's supposed to be consistent over a (very long) time, not a "quick fix" so it's actually really…

Memory is associative. So if you study a topic from different approaches or read other tangential material, that has connections to the topic, you remember it a lot better, thanks to associations.

Repetition techniques simply ignore associations.

Learning new vocabulary works up until 200-300 words, then it's useless.

Re: Spaced repetition can allow for infinite recall (2022)

#175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never got try the algorithm - I simply don’t get the UI in spite of all my best efforts. I’m looking for a wanikani like tool, with the same srs , and same excellent and simple ui. I’ll have a look at supermemo ( I don’t mind paying ).

You might like Mochi for macOS and iOS. www.mochi.cards

This looks exactly like what I’m looking for. Thanks.

Re: Spaced repetition can allow for infinite recall (2022)

#176
post #27

Wozniak estimates that you actually get a maximum of~300,000 based on his decades of data, so it seems the simplified model misses some effect and so converges to the wrong total: https://supermemo.guru/wiki/How_much_knowledge_can_human_bra...

Wozniak is incredible, it saddens me that SuperMemo will probably drift into obscurity due to being closed source and the chances of seeing its source code drift away day by day, it took a few years to get anything beyond IE support after that died. I wish to see a FOSS incremental reading application in the very least, such an underrated concept.

There is some progress in open source implementations. Anki originally used a SuperMemo-2 implementation, it now uses the improved FSRS algorithm. There is also an incremental reading addon.

It's a fairly opinionated space, which is surprising since there is good data. But regardless, SuperMemo, FSRS, both work, you will make progress with either. People can just pick either and get started.

https://github.com/open-spaced-repetition/free-spaced-repeti...

https://ankiweb.net/shared/info/935264945

Re: Spaced repetition can allow for infinite recall (2022)

#177
post #101
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Understanding versus remembering. You first understand and only afterwards encode your understanding in cards. It's in reviewing the cards that you put the understanding into your long-term memory (or possibly reveal gaps in your knowledge, in which case you revise your understanding).

Swedish: Vad har det med saken att göra? direct translation: what has this with the matter to do? meaning: what does this have to do with it? Where does understanding come in? I can imagine what understanding mean for mathematics, science, etc. but for language, I'm having difficulty figuring it out.

The understanding comes from knowing when to use that phrase compared with other phrases that might mean similar things. Idiomatic usage to some extent. If learning a language was just remembering direct phrases then machine translation would be trivial

Re: Spaced repetition can allow for infinite recall (2022)

#178
post #22

Besides LineByLine ( https://linebyline.app ), does anyone have tips on memorizing long texts using spaced repetition?

SuperMemo 19 (2024 - Desktop/Windows) has incremental reading support https://super-memory.com/help/read.htm Disclaimer: AnkiDroid maintainer

Thank you so much for your work on Anki Droid, I use it daily

Re: Spaced repetition can allow for infinite recall (2022)

#179
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually consuming content in any form is even better.

Does consuming content include watching movies/shows in the language? For me, I can state with high certainty that simply watching a lot of movies or shows in the language I was learning did absolutely nothing to help my vocabulary compared to using anki. If by consuming content you meant taking a specific movie/episode and breaking it down, studying it relentlessly, and moving on to the next after you've seen it 20…

> Does consuming content include watching movies/shows in the language?

Yes. Assuming the content is around your level - contains words you do not know, but not too much. Obviously, if you know every single word in the movie, you wont learn new ones. And if you understand nothing of it, you wont learn either.

> If by consuming content you meant taking a specific movie/episode and breaking it down, studying it relentlessly, and moving on to the next after you've seen it 20 times and practically have it memorized, then maybe that would've helped?

That sounds like self torture rather then anything else. Why would anyone do that? What would be the point of watching the same thing till you memorize that thing?

The value of consuming content comes from seeing many different sentences in many different contexts. So you build more connections in your brain and you eventually learn to combine own sentences. Movies specifically have value of showing something more similar to "normal speech" in speed so that your brain wont have time to translate.

Memorizing segments goes against everything it is supposed to provide.

> I can state with high certainty that simply watching a lot of movies or shows in the language I was learning did absolutely nothing to help my vocabulary compared to using anki.

For me, each time I tried anki, it seems to work short term. And it completely fails to teach me new words. Flashcards seem to be the least effective way to actual learn words that are truly new. I keep forgetting words I have learned from anki much much faster then words I learned from elsewhere.

Re: Spaced repetition can allow for infinite recall (2022)

#180
post #33
post #10

I have been wondering about this in the context of being ready for work in the age of LLM‘s. What nobody can deny is that they memorize information at a superhuman level, so it might reduce the value of having done that myself. On the other hand, “couldn’t you just google that“has been an erroneous retort to the value of space repetition for decades, during which I’ve gotten a lot of value out of doing. has been a er…

What you remember becomes part of your thinking and reasoning. So no, why would you google something if it doesn’t come to mind as something relevant.

> What you remember becomes part of your thinking and reasoning

I find it also true for books, you unconsciously internalize things by reading the full book VS reading a summary. I sometimes reread books I read 10+ years ago and I often have these "ah so that's where I got this idea from". Most of the time it isn't even about the main point of the book, it can be a sentence or a dialogue that left an imprint on your psyche

I'd hate to be a simple proxy between google/llms and the real world

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