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Apple is open sourcing Swift Build

swift.org

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Re: Apple is open sourcing Swift Build

#171

Post by napierzaza »

gruuuk wrote: post #157
jitl wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get this reaction. Apple: here, we're open-sourcing this previously closed-source Apple-specific thing that made Swift better on Apple platforms. We're moving the Apple stuff into a plugin so Windows and Linux can be equal peers to Apple in the new system. We've implemented preliminary support for Windows & Linux and plan to continue work to bring them up to parity. Hacker News: I believe that this long game…

They should have been fully open source with full linux support and parity since day one. That would actually help the language get traction. At this point it's a dying language.

No one uses Apple platforms - sent from my iPhone

Re: Apple is open sourcing Swift Build

#172

Post by jitl »

myko wrote: post #164
jitl wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me it just spins forever and never manages to do any LSP things

Pretty similar to the Xcode experience, then

I find Xcode completion and especially doc lookup pretty good. It’s not as good as being able to jump straight into framework source code like with Android Studio but better than pretty much anything in VS Code in any language.

That is, as long as there’re no type errors in my code… once I get a little too creative in SwiftUI all bets are off.

Re: Apple is open sourcing Swift Build

#173

Post by koakuma-chan »

cosmic_cheese wrote: post #169
bartekpacia wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Kotlin’s syntax is also weird/quirky in some ways. I'm curious to learn what you mean by this! :)

No terenary if and the elvis operator, for one. Stuff like that trips me up frequently when jumping between Kotlin and Swift/other C-likes.

If expression: https://kotlinlang.org/docs/control-flow.html#if-expression Elvis operator: https://kotlinlang.org/docs/null-safety.html#elvis-operator

Re: Apple is open sourcing Swift Build

#174

Post by bluepizza »

jitl wrote: post #149
uhura wrote: post #36

I believe that this long game of Swift being "good for everything" but "better for Apple platforms" will be detrimental to the language. This does not help the language nor seems to bring more people to the ecosystem. Competitors seems to have a combination of: - Being more open-source - Have more contributors - Have a narrower scope Maybe they should consider open sourcing all the tooling (like Xcode) otherwise the…

I don't get this reaction. Apple: here, we're open-sourcing this previously closed-source Apple-specific thing that made Swift better on Apple platforms. We're moving the Apple stuff into a plugin so Windows and Linux can be equal peers to Apple in the new system. We've implemented preliminary support for Windows & Linux and plan to continue work to bring them up to parity. Hacker News: I believe that this long game…

I don't get this reaction.

Almost every language in the world: here's the spec, the tooling, and everything you need to use, master, and expand this language. Please use it.

Apple: sorry, Mac only.

Like, I want Apple to do the bare minimum that everyone else is doing.

Re: Apple is open sourcing Swift Build

#175

Post by WD-42 »

AdrianEGraphene wrote: post #131
alain_gilbert wrote: post #60

Swift is a really cool language. But one thing that blows my mind is that if you ever encounter an "index out of range" error, the (massive) error message that you get doesn't tell you anything about where this error occurred... no line number... no nothing... let a = [1] print(a[1]) Is all you have to do to reproduce the error. The error looks something like that https://pastebin.com/MQV82SaR And gives you no useful…

Thanks for reminding me of why I shy away from Swift and dove into the arms of Kotlin Multiplatform.

Yea because kotlin without a jetbrains ide is such a good experience.

Re: Apple is open sourcing Swift Build

#176

Post by andrekandre »

seviu wrote: post #117
sgt wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did something happen with Xcode? I used it around 5 years ago, and it was pretty good and fast. I don't think it had dark mode but that's not too important to me.

No refactoring tools, lack of autocomplete, having multiple targets break compilation, errors in the ui, crashes running unit tests, it freaks out when switching git branches, spm can’t handle proxy servers, never ending indexing… List goes on and on. Xcode used to be good at around version 3. Everything that came after that has been disastrous. Meanwhile Android Studio or VS Syudio are tools which are a joy to use a…

  > Xcode used to be good at around version 3.
before the merging of interface builder into xcode: it never recovered...

Re: Apple is open sourcing Swift Build

#177

Post by aristofun »

Swift itself is a great piece of tech.

But it is doomed to fail as a general widely adopted language unless apple makes few critical moves including open sourcing everything including XCode, providing support for 3d party IDE developers (because xcode is terrible), creating decent package manager, adopting testing as first class citizen etc.

There is just no economical sense for anyone to invest in swift until all the above (and some more) is done.

Re: Apple is open sourcing Swift Build

#178

Post by talldayo »

jitl wrote: post #149
uhura wrote: post #36

I believe that this long game of Swift being "good for everything" but "better for Apple platforms" will be detrimental to the language. This does not help the language nor seems to bring more people to the ecosystem. Competitors seems to have a combination of: - Being more open-source - Have more contributors - Have a narrower scope Maybe they should consider open sourcing all the tooling (like Xcode) otherwise the…

I don't get this reaction. Apple: here, we're open-sourcing this previously closed-source Apple-specific thing that made Swift better on Apple platforms. We're moving the Apple stuff into a plugin so Windows and Linux can be equal peers to Apple in the new system. We've implemented preliminary support for Windows & Linux and plan to continue work to bring them up to parity. Hacker News: I believe that this long game…

> Like, what more do you want from them?

You know what we want from them. If Apple wants to be accepted by the Open Source community, they can't reprise the Microsoft playbook with a smug "Think Different" twist. This is basically a beat-for-beat rerun of the C#/Dotnet situation with a different font and Corinthian leather.

The internet at-large is sick and tired of tending to Apple's scraps at their obscure whims. If you are a developer that isn't already implicated to use Swift for iOS development, you'd be wasting your time doing Cupertino's work bringing up their language for them. They do not care, and only want to exploit your time and productivity like they do with the App Store. Much like C#, this is a scenario where everyone but the main benefactor will be thrown under the bus.

Re: Apple is open sourcing Swift Build

#179

Post by easeout »

bluepizza wrote: post #174
jitl wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get this reaction. Apple: here, we're open-sourcing this previously closed-source Apple-specific thing that made Swift better on Apple platforms. We're moving the Apple stuff into a plugin so Windows and Linux can be equal peers to Apple in the new system. We've implemented preliminary support for Windows & Linux and plan to continue work to bring them up to parity. Hacker News: I believe that this long game…

I don't get this reaction. Almost every language in the world: here's the spec, the tooling, and everything you need to use, master, and expand this language. Please use it. Apple: sorry, Mac only. Like, I want Apple to do the bare minimum that everyone else is doing.

Swift announced Linux support in 2015 when it went open source. Aspects of parity have taken years, and the Objective-C interop that isn't relevant outside Apple platforms but made adoption take off at all occupied a lot of early effort, but every Swift talk at FOSDEM today was about embedded or Linux server applications, or platform-agnostic C++ and Java interop. What can you possibly mean by "Mac only" or "bare minimum"?

Re: Apple is open sourcing Swift Build

#180

Post by abenga »

WD-42 wrote: post #175
AdrianEGraphene wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for reminding me of why I shy away from Swift and dove into the arms of Kotlin Multiplatform.

Yea because kotlin without a jetbrains ide is such a good experience.

At least the jetbrains ide exists for all major platforms.
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