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Startup Winter: Hacker News Lost Its Faith

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Re: Startup Winter: Hacker News Lost Its Faith

#171

Post by meritage31 »

itake wrote: post #107
aqme28 wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was the second engineer (series A) at a company that IPO’d at a unicorn valuation. By all rights that’s a great outcome. I made about as much in that exit as I would have if I were just at a FAANG instead

This tracks. I think the real value employees get is riding the rocketship in their career. Early engineers often have first dibs on higher level roles, like CTO or director over people that join late. Your initial grant might not be great, but being director at such a company is huge

>> I think the real value employees get is riding the rocketship in their career.

Startups hire those people when they are risky and the future is unclear. Once there is traction, the VCs and insiders bring in friends for cush Director/VC posts. Quite often the people who took the real risks get left out.

Re: Startup Winter: Hacker News Lost Its Faith

#172

Post by nostradumbasp »

ludwigvan wrote: post #36

Most engineers figured out that the options/stocks of startups are worthless.

9 times out of 10 the company sells, performs a reduction in force, or goes under before they vest. 1 time out of 1000 the company is worth something and remains operable over a 5 year period.

Rules of thumb for the green engineers:

- Take salary/health insurance over stock in almost all cases.

- At some companies employees who are greener and greedier will fight/sabotage all their peers to get rid of them, is this the type of place you want to be at? Insider fighting is often a big part of why these companies fail.

- Never pay into start up equity. If a company "offers you the chance to buy their stock" after X months/years don't do it and if you do, don't put much in. Have an excuse so no one gets offended like "I am saving for a house" or something. If you're looking at a 5k minimum simply don't do it unless that is peanuts for you.

- Make sure anything offered is in writing and completely understood before joining. Lots of things are said at final stage interviews. If it isn't in writing you are not getting it. Ask questions be annoying.

- Negotiate. Its the only way you can actually get what you want. If the stocks mean nothing to you unless you get them quick, negotiate that. Start ups close doors extremely suddenly every single day.

Re: Startup Winter: Hacker News Lost Its Faith

#173

Post by kccqzy »

KaiserPro wrote: post #169
kijin wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, this is often overlooked in all the talk of $300k FAANG salaries. Few people get those senior salaries, and those who do get it because of their unusual skills and experiences. A stint at a startup is still a pretty good way to get those skills and experiences, compared to spending the same amount of time as a junior developer somewhere else. If you can make capital gains equivalent to FAANG senior salaries whi…

levels.fyi will give you some confidence in the wage. Google, Meta, Amazon & microsoft all do banding, so the base wages is mostly public (hence why its all bollocks about wage negotiation, there isn't any.) The first level of senior for most of these orgs will tip the scales at around $300k Having worked at both startup and FAANG, I don;t think startups actually give you the skills to flourish here in corp land. Sur…

Wage negotiation means getting to the top of the band sooner. Other people might have to perform well at the level to get to the band, but a wage negotiator might just get there on their first day.

Re: Startup Winter: Hacker News Lost Its Faith

#174

Post by meritage31 »

KaiserPro wrote: post #17

I think the bigger issue is that most of the financial upsides of startups were illusory Unless you're a founder, you're unlikely to make any money, and predatory VC/backers using convertibles/senior debt to turn your equity into Zimbabwean dollars. Thats before any stats are calculated for lasting long enough to either IPO, make money or get bought out. As someone who did successfully exit, the stories of multiple-m…

>> Dodgy accounting & staff retention meant that actually you don't get fuckyou money.

The insiders get rich via salary, bonus, benefits, and looking for their next job while they are on startup-expensed conference tours, paid forbes articles, and company-sponsored fellowships.

Re: Startup Winter: Hacker News Lost Its Faith

#175

Post by nostradumbasp »

bilinguliar wrote: post #110

I value my own business for freedom, not money. You don’t have to build a unicorn. Business has to be sustainable; profit has to be higher than expenses.

I think this is the key to work-life happiness. Wishing you the best. Hopefully I am doing the same someday.

Re: Startup Winter: Hacker News Lost Its Faith

#176

Post by jimmydddd »

clumsysmurf wrote: post #125
yason wrote: post #43

I'd say starting a company to make something people want in order to sell it for money is still relevant. It's just that you're looking at working quietly, humbly, but perseverantly for the next 25 years, slowly growing the business and balancing the risks and opportunities along the way. You won't be looking for an "exit" because you want to take care of the company you built. That's a very different story from what…

> you're looking at working quietly, humbly, but perseverantly for the next 25 years > That never was sustainable, I think Another aspect with this being (un)sustainable is lack of affordable healthcare. I bet many people would take more risks if they didn't have to worry about this aspect of their lives.

Agreed. I was starting a small law firm (small biz, not a startup) and asked other dudes who had done the same what they did for healthcare. The all said the same thing -- I had my wife get a job at a bank.

Re: Startup Winter: Hacker News Lost Its Faith

#177

Post by meritage31 »

ludwigvan wrote: post #36

Most engineers figured out that the options/stocks of startups are worthless.

>> Most engineers figured out that the options/stocks of startups are worthless.

Also, if the startup gives you options/stocks without showing up the cap table, they are giving you a numerator and not a denominator.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalization_table

Never trade real cash for imaginary money unless you have the facts

Re: Startup Winter: Hacker News Lost Its Faith

#178

Post by [deleted] »

KaiserPro wrote: post #17

I think the bigger issue is that most of the financial upsides of startups were illusory Unless you're a founder, you're unlikely to make any money, and predatory VC/backers using convertibles/senior debt to turn your equity into Zimbabwean dollars. Thats before any stats are calculated for lasting long enough to either IPO, make money or get bought out. As someone who did successfully exit, the stories of multiple-m…

[deleted]

Re: Startup Winter: Hacker News Lost Its Faith

#179

Post by paulsutter »

KaiserPro wrote: post #17

I think the bigger issue is that most of the financial upsides of startups were illusory Unless you're a founder, you're unlikely to make any money, and predatory VC/backers using convertibles/senior debt to turn your equity into Zimbabwean dollars. Thats before any stats are calculated for lasting long enough to either IPO, make money or get bought out. As someone who did successfully exit, the stories of multiple-m…

The best reason to join a startup is to learn how to create a startup. That’s the main thing you won’t get at a FANG job.

Re: Startup Winter: Hacker News Lost Its Faith

#180

Post by signatoremo »

the_af wrote: post #139
diggan wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think the bigger issue is that most of the financial upsides of startups were illusory I wouldn't say I'm an old-timer by any metrics, but even back in 2012 when I first discovered and joined HN, I remember it was pretty clear in the community (and people I spoke to around me) you shouldn't go to work at a startup if you were looking for "a lot + safe" money. Sure, you could belong to the 0.001% and work on the n…

The thing that puzzles me is the early "only eating Ramen and pulling all nighters" startup founder story. I suppose nobody believes this anymore, fortunately. I mean... we all agree, it would seem, this is not the path to getting rich for most people. And it's unhealthy and stressful, so it's also not the best way to work. So it has to come down to "the mission". You must be doing something so amazing, so innovative…

“The mission” isn’t the only meaningful drive.

It is hard to build a successful business out of even a most mundane ideas. That alone can be a great accomplishment that many people strive for. Also to be able to set and execute initiatives is also a great motivation. Seeing the fruits of your labor can be very rewarding.

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