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How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

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Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#171

Post by devjab »

jayd16 wrote: post #133
devjab wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a difference between treating someone as a human and bullshitting your manager though. I’m painfully blunt to the point where the management staff had to spend 3 hours in a crisis meeting discussing whether to fire me an another developer over our opinions given on a department meeting. Which to be fair was the wrong place to throw a couple of managers under the bus for something we’d been telling them for m…

I think this is an example of a different issue. It sounds like your managers listened to your feedback often and even let high profile disruptions slide. In general I think honesty is a good policy and management should be receptive to hearing out problems and possible solutions but that's not the same thing as implementing all feedback. Maybe you're right or maybe your pet peeve just isn't a priority or can't be do…

I mean, this is one example which fits the discussion. Also one that I cherrypicked because I was actually right. I’ve had plenty of managers who were good at listening, however, I think most have been great. I have also worked management a few years myself and taken education in that direction before figuring out it wasn’t for me, so I certainly understand the financial and political parts of management and that you as an employee never have the full picture.

That being said, I have also had managers that I’ve played board games with on our free time who I haven’t actually given my opinion on certain issues with because they weren’t very good at taking that advice. Sometimes I’ve also not done it because I knew managers of my manager wouldn’t take it well if it made I up the chain. I view this more as an issue between me and the organisation I work for. If I’m not invested I’m not going to help it beyond what they pay me to do because it rarely comes back to me in a positive way.

There are many aspect to it. I’ve also had a manager who was a total waste of space as a manager, only caring about the “good story” whether it was true or not to push their own career. Who was also rather cold in regards to management employee duties since they really didn’t like the negative sides of it. Who was then the warmest nicest person in their personal life.

So it’s a very complex situation as you pointed out, but it’s also one where it’s perfectly reasonable to not try to lead upwards if you don’t want the hassle. At least in my opinion.

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#172

Post by throwaway346434 »

This is all bad advice. A bad manager is rarely ignorant they are bad; they are often going to be insecure having moved outside of their comfort zone. A good leader is going to be aware they often act terribly and invite you to their world view - who knows, you could be wrong.

You can coddle bad managers as this article suggests; but take a step back and look at the bigger picture.

Will this person cause harm, death, or injury due to their decision making or lack there of? Attempt to fix them for a limited duration or get the hell out. Do it in a collaborative way, where you can enable them to make the right choices. That doesn't work? Get out. Don't enable them to cause harm.

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#173

Post by throwaway346434 »

wjnc wrote: post #29
lijok wrote: post #6

Astonishing. Completely backwards. This article describes how to give feedback to your subordinates, not to your superiors. If your superiors are unable to process no-fluff information, regardless of whether it's feedback or updates, they have no business lording over anyone and will sink whatever function they have oversight of. If you find yourself working under such people, don't bother giving feedback, start poli…

This. I had to get a little used to not fluffing around my feedback. One of our managers just asked me to give it to him straight, directly and 1-on-1 and we’d get along fine. So we did. I still am having trouble with how little, what I see as fact based, feedback is needed before the average person has had enough. Example: I like to point out shitty work processes (one needs a hobby). Anything with a few loops and s…

I would give up a huge amount of my paycheck for a manager who heard me bitch and whinge about every little flaw; told me I'd made them too angry to continue the conversation but we should pick it up in ~48 hours with a mutually agreeable plan coming back with stats and analysis for where my opinion was simply wrong; vs where it was right.

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#174

Post by danparsonson »

cdavid wrote: post #75
kybernetikos wrote: post #14

Most of those examples (not giving enough direction, not training new hires enough, not being clear enough on priorities) are probably not going to be surprises for the person, and if you give feedback that shows you want someone to behave differently without having given some thought about why they aren't already then your feedback talks more about your own lack of experience and empathy than anything else. To give…

> Imagine the difference between "I want to give you feedback that you aren't spending enough time with new hires" vs "I know you've been wanting to spend more time with the new hires, why don't you take them for lunch and send me to your status meeting over Tuesday lunch time this week." This is the proper answer. Ultimately, feedback should be about changing something. My experience is that most people are neither…

Delegation is the managers job - it's not up to the subordinate to delegate on their managers behalf IMO.

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#175

Post by localhost3000 »

In my experience one of the best ways to "get ahead" is to give direct 1:1 feedback to someone higher up in your management chain for something that you are obviously right about it (some wiggle room here, but be sure to be atleast mostly right on a non-trivial topic). It demonstrates to them that you have good judgement and have backbone. They will trust you more and start to think of you as more of a peer than merely someone in their span of control (obviously you need to do this tactfully / not be a dick about it but also be firm). This has been a huge unlock for my career. ymmv.

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#176

Post by thaumasiotes »

sleazebreeze wrote: post #121
thaumasiotes wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

The Biden case seems like an example of when the senior leader was not given any honest feedback in private and then was humiliated in public. If anything that’s a reason to give feedback to the leader privately without sugar coating.

According to the comment I responded to, the senior leader can't be humiliated in public, because there is no such concept as the senior leader losing face.

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#177

Post by thaumasiotes »

alsetmusic wrote: post #123
thaumasiotes wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> You don't do it in public. The comment you're replying to specifically nullified your example.

You might want to read the comments before you decide what they mean. It doesn't say "face can only be lost in public". It says "face can only be lost among peers and superiors".

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#178

Post by awanderingmind »

lijok wrote: post #6

Astonishing. Completely backwards. This article describes how to give feedback to your subordinates, not to your superiors. If your superiors are unable to process no-fluff information, regardless of whether it's feedback or updates, they have no business lording over anyone and will sink whatever function they have oversight of. If you find yourself working under such people, don't bother giving feedback, start poli…

I agree strongly - if I worked at an organisation where the linked article was the 'necessary' way of communicating I would look for a job at a less dysfunctional company. The context of the article seems to be a workplace with a sense of hierarchy that is inimical to honesty if it threatens insecure managers' egos or social standing.

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#179

Post by Zeebrommer »

kybernetikos wrote: post #14

Most of those examples (not giving enough direction, not training new hires enough, not being clear enough on priorities) are probably not going to be surprises for the person, and if you give feedback that shows you want someone to behave differently without having given some thought about why they aren't already then your feedback talks more about your own lack of experience and empathy than anything else. To give…

I agree that most leaders will now they are fallible, and also have some idea of which things are problematic. As an inexperienced leader, I still valued getting "known feedback". It gave me a better idea of which problems were growing too large, and which ones remained minor annoyances. In addition, acknowledging the points that were brought up and explaining why I hadn't gotten to addressing them (besides being human) usually gave the person giving the feedback a more positive outlook.

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#180

Post by Lvl999Noob »

refulgentis wrote: post #141
thaumasiotes wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only in the same sense that bottom-level employees are the CEO's superior. Which is to say, they aren't. Formal structure can stabilize a system and make it resilient to shocks. But there's a limit to how much stability can be provided, and if you provide enough shock, the structure will change.

> Only in the same sense that bottom-level employees are the CEO's superior. Which is to say, they aren't. Fascinating: What companies do you know of that have democratic elections of CEOs?

Doesn't nearly every company have a democratic process for choosing CEOs? Just that the voters are only the board members.
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