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Jaywalking legalized in New York City

theguardian.com

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Re: Jaywalking legalized in New York City

#171

Post by int_19h »

freefaler wrote: post #51
simgt wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's a slippery slope with a 2 ton SUV driving at 50mph and a person "interpreting" that it's not disrupting it. Maybe the problem here is that a 2 ton SUV shouldn't be driven at 50mph when pedestrians are anywhere near. I always find it interesting how the ones advocating for the absolute freedom of owning and driving an SUV everywhere, to carry 70kg of human flesh, are usually also the ones asking for the restric…

The problem is not how big is the car or any other subject. The problem with any rule that is badly formulated is the ambiguity it creates. In this instance this bad definition can lead to very bad consequences. Bad rules = ambiguous rules and need for interpretation and that leads to many bad consequences.

There are many countries in the world that have such "ambiguous" rules wrt pedestrian crossings. Much of Europe, for example.

Can you cite any specific examples of this being a problem anywhere in practice?

Re: Jaywalking legalized in New York City

#172

Post by leptons »

vel0city wrote: post #114
leptons wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and in that case the car has to yield to the pedestrian, if the pedestrian has the right of way. It's really very simple, and in every basic driving test.

The problem is the driver is likely looking to the left to see if it's safe to quickly pull out and not bother looking to their right for that pedestrian stepping out into the intersection. I've been lightly hit a few times because of people like that. I've also almost been hit by people ignoring the stop line and stopping abruptly in the crosswalk area immediately in front of me.

The laws are clear about this. If the crosswalk has a crossing indicator, allowing people to cross, then the people have the right of way. It doesn't matter what the person in the car is wanting to do, they must yield to pedestrians. If they hit a pedestrian, then it's clearly the driver's fault. If a pedestrian crosses outside of a crosswalk (a distance away from a crosswalk), they are supposed to yield to oncoming cars. If they don't and the pedestrian gets hit by a car, it's the pedestrian's fault. Got it?

Re: Jaywalking legalized in New York City

#173

Post by int_19h »

vel0city wrote: post #117
Gigachad wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The average person probably violates jaywalking laws multiple times a day. What other law do most people break constantly as just part of day to day life?

I imagine most Americans violate speeding and other vehicles moving laws far more often than jaywalking. I imagine the majority of Americans haven't actually crossed a street as a pedestrian in the last week. Why would they? They drive from their home to their job to the parking lot of the grocery store to the drive through pickup line at school for their kids. I'm one of the more transit/pedestrian/bike people in th…

Even if you always drive, parking in large cities is often limited enough that you have to walk a fair bit from where you can find a spot to where you actually need to go.

Re: Jaywalking legalized in New York City

#174

Post by asd33313131 »

gxonatano wrote: post #87

Let's not forget that jaywalking was essentially created by the automotive industry and its lobbyists, to make life more convenient for drivers. It started in car-heavy places like California, and eventually became a law virtually everywhere in the US, but was never really enforced in New York City, where most people walk or take public transit, rather than drive. If, like most New Yorkers, you walk several kilometer…

In Vienna, which has very good public transport and a large walking population, there is a strong culture against jaywalking. Locals will wait at the crosswalk sign even on minor roads with no traffic. Having lived in New York, London, and other places, I've never seen anything like it.

Re: Jaywalking legalized in New York City

#175

Post by leecarraher »

is there a difference, legally, regarding vehicular involuntary manslaughter, between hitting someone who is jaywalking and someone who is not. Example, a person walks into a 65 mph thoroughfare after a curve, since they are no longer in the commencement of a crime, does that make the act tantamount to hitting someone in a crosswalk?

Re: Jaywalking legalized in New York City

#176

Post by atq2119 »

elif wrote: post #153
standardUser wrote: post #108

First, let's not forget that jaywalking is one of those "crimes" that is used as a pretense by police to harass people, usually young people and people of color. Second, as a veteran jaywalker, my rule of thumb is that if a car has to hit their breaks even a little, or otherwise alter their trajectory, you're doing it wrong. The goal should be smooth movement for all. Third, just because someone else is jaywalking do…

Yea the herd mentality is why jaywalking is unethical. I've witnessed someone try to cross early, triggering literally ~20 people to follow, only for the light to change and everyone collectively realized they had no right of way and stepped back. It's easy to see how this could result in tragedy. Germany, Japan, there is strict social compliance so it feels right anyway.

It's a bit more subtle than that.

In Germany, crossing at a red light is very frowned upon. Many Germans even wait at a red pedestrian light in the middle of the night when there's zero traffic.

Crossing streets in places without pedestrian lights or designated crossings is very common, though, and I believe usually legal. (I certainly haven't heard of anybody being fined for it.)

Re: Jaywalking legalized in New York City

#177

Post by NoMoreNicksLeft »

freefaler wrote: post #45
tsimionescu wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cars are already supposed to slow down if they see pedestrians on the street, even if the pedestrian is crossing illegally, same as they are supposed to avoid drivers doing illegal things. It's the police's job to punish illegal behavior, not drivers'. So, in the situation you describe, the solution is clear: the car has to slow down, and any police officer is supposed to notice that the car had to slow down and issu…

Rules for people are not the same as a code for a compiler. You may enact a rule, but people are not guaranteed they will comply with it either because they will brake it or they will forget/ignore it. If a bad rule is enacted and it kills 100 people per year more, will enforcement of the rule bring back those 100 people? Rules should take into account the stupid things people will do and that in real life you won't…

> will enforcement of the rule bring back those 100 people?

Yes. Enforcement of the rules, when done properly, does save lives. We have psychology studies that show that judgement/punishment needs to be swift/certain. When that is the case, human behavior is altered (sometimes permanently).

> and that in real life you won't get 100% compliance and enforcement

No one needs 100% compliance. We need something up near 98% or 99%, which is achievable.

Re: Jaywalking legalized in New York City

#178

Post by jedberg »

gosub100 wrote: post #169
jedberg wrote: post #159

As far as I know, NYC is unique in that pedestrians do not have the right of way. Everywhere else you must legally stop for a pedestrian but in NYC you don't. (edit, since people seem confused: This doesn't mean you can run them over. It just means you don't have to stop if you are going to block their path. Everywhere else, you have to stop if you are going to block a pedestrian's path, no matter where that pedestri…

Nowhere do you have the right to drive into a human being, whether there's laws against jaywalking or not.

That’s not what that means. It means you’re allowed to block their path. Everywhere else you must stop if you will block the path of a person. In NYC you do not.

Of course you can’t run them down.

Re: Jaywalking legalized in New York City

#179

Post by _yb2s »

giantg2 wrote: post #165
standardUser wrote: post #108

First, let's not forget that jaywalking is one of those "crimes" that is used as a pretense by police to harass people, usually young people and people of color. Second, as a veteran jaywalker, my rule of thumb is that if a car has to hit their breaks even a little, or otherwise alter their trajectory, you're doing it wrong. The goal should be smooth movement for all. Third, just because someone else is jaywalking do…

"Second, as a veteran jaywalker, my rule of thumb is that if a car has to hit their breaks even a little, or otherwise alter their trajectory, you're doing it wrong." You're doing it illegally in most places. If you imped the flow of traffic with the right of way, that's still an offense in most places. The article isn't clear if it's still a violation in NYC, but I bet it is.

I believe that was their point in calling themselves a veteran jaywalker. If it were a proper legal way of crossing given local laws, it is not jaywalking.

Re: Jaywalking legalized in New York City

#180

Post by ssl-3 »

fragmede wrote: post #67
tsimionescu wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In certain parts of the USA, cars are allowed to turn right from the first lane even on a red light, unless there is some explicit sign prohibiting it in that intersection.

Unless expressly prohibited , eg by said sign, right-turn-on-red defaults to being legal across vthe US.

Unless I'm missing something: Defining traffic laws is something that the states do on their own, and these aren't things that the federal government generally gets involved with.

Thus, there are 50 different sets of these laws, plus DC. Any similarities between them may be nothing more than incidental.

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