Secret 3D scans in the French Supreme Court • Hacker News Board

Re: Secret 3D scans in the French Supreme Court

#171

Post by h1fra » Fri, Oct 18, 2024, 5:56 PM UTC

mmooss wrote: post #9

Anyone in the world with an internet connection can view, interact with, and download the British Museum’s 3D scan of the Rosetta Stone, for example. The public can freely access hundreds of scans of classical sculpture from the National Gallery of Denmark, and visitors to the Smithsonian’s website can view, navigate, and freely download thousands of high-quality scans of artifacts ranging from dinosaur fossils to th…

Rosetta Stone is an item in Animal Crossing, it's very similar to the original I wonder if they used the model as starting point.

https://animalcrossing.fandom.com/wiki/Informative_statue?fi...

Re: Secret 3D scans in the French Supreme Court

#172

Post by geuis » Fri, Oct 18, 2024, 5:59 PM UTC

newaccount74 wrote: post #58

myrmidon wrote: post #48

This is utterly puzzling to me. I just don't understand how you sit on the museums side of the trial on this, without seriously questioning your own position and conceding immediately. They were basically arguing that they are entitled to hide those scan artifacts to better protect their gift shop?! How can they even reconcile those arguments with preserving the artists legacy/serving the common good? I'm also surpri…

> weird, jealous hoarding mentality happening on the museums side That's exactly it. I work on a website that makes ancient artefacts accessible. A lot of them are in museums. You wouldn't believe how many museums: - don't want to show you their archive - don't want to let you take pictures - want you to share only low res pictures - want you to get permission before you can "publish" their artefacts, etc. It's extre…

What's your website since you mentioned it?

Re: Secret 3D scans in the French Supreme Court

#173

Post by lucasverra » Fri, Oct 18, 2024, 6:00 PM UTC

at the end of the article there is emails addresses of the actors in this.

Will be programming an email for next week :)

Contacts

Cosmo Wenman cosmowenman.com cosmo.wenman@gmail.com

Alexis Fitzjean Ó Cobhthaigh Attorney at the Paris Bar afocavocat.eu afoc@afocavocat.eu afoc.avocat@protonmail.com

Hugues Herpin Head of Service, Musée Rodin herpin@musee-rodin.fr +33 (0)1 44 18 61 10

Hélène Pilidjian Head of the litigation office, Ministry of Culture helene.pilidjian@culture.gouv.fr +33 (0)1 40 15 80 00

Caroline-Sarah Ellenberg Deputy Director, in charge of legal affairs, Réunion des musées nationaux caroline-sarah.ellenberg@rmngp.fr +33 (0)1 40 13 48 00

Pierre Vigneron Head of Grand Palais Rmn Photo Pierre.Vigneron@rmngp.fr agence.photo@grandpalaisrmn.fr +33 (0)1 40 13 48 00

Re: Secret 3D scans in the French Supreme Court

#174

Post by gknoy » Fri, Oct 18, 2024, 6:09 PM UTC

diggan wrote: post #21

mmooss wrote: post #9

Anyone in the world with an internet connection can view, interact with, and download the British Museum’s 3D scan of the Rosetta Stone, for example. The public can freely access hundreds of scans of classical sculpture from the National Gallery of Denmark, and visitors to the Smithsonian’s website can view, navigate, and freely download thousands of high-quality scans of artifacts ranging from dinosaur fossils to th…

> Has anyone used these in games? No doubt someone has put some of them into games. However, most likely not in it's original shape/form, as the scans usually produce highly inefficiently (but high resolution, great for renders) meshes. The meshes from scans tend to be a mess, and when inserting a 3D model for games, you care a lot about how optimized the meshes are, and that the mesh has a low polygon count as other…

I sincerely hope more games allow virtual interactions with culturally significant art. Hell, I'd love a virtual tour of major art institutions!

It's not Rodin, but the game Horizon: Forbidden West has a segment where you get to view + interact with renderings of some paintings by Vermeer and Rembrandt. I've seen some of these in person at a museum in San Francisco, but somehow the experience was more meaningful in the game, despite having comparative potato quality compared to real life. I think what made the difference was that in the game, each painting had several lines of dialogue about what the painting represented, or elements thereof represented, about what was going on when the artist created it, etc, and the dialogue choices included questions I would never have thought to ask about in person.

I know that museums have virtual tours that have ausio descriptions like that about the art pieces, but I've never managed to take advantage of them. Can you imagine being able to take a high-detail virtual tour (even if not in VR) of a museum like the one in the article, or the Louvre, where you could spend as long as you want looking at every painting, zoom in at details like brushwork or how the light hits it, and have an expanding set of accessible narration (or readable text) about each item?

Re: Secret 3D scans in the French Supreme Court

#175

Post by addcommitpush » Fri, Oct 18, 2024, 6:10 PM UTC

kergonath wrote: post #169

addcommitpush wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is not a court That's weird because the Conseil d'Etat thinks it is the "supreme administrative judge" [0]. How could they not know that they are not a court? [0] https://www.conseil-etat.fr/decisions-de-justice/juger-les-l...

They are judges in that they make decisions, but they are not magistrates; they are civil servants. The way it works is also quite different from the cour de cassation . There is not really a prosecution, a defense, or parties civiles . It’s its own thing, partly for philosophical reasons related to separation of powers, and partly for practical reasons under the Ancien Régime. The kings did not want magistrates to i…

I don't think we should be missing the forest for the trees.

Yes, because of historical reasons, _technically_ "magistrat" refers specifically to magistrates from the judicial branch and not all judges [0]. This is surely interesting yet administrative judges do the same job of presiding over court proceedings before them and being independent from the political authorities.

Procedure is different between the two branches, but there are also differences of procedures within each branch - for instance between penal vs civil cases.

The Constitutionnal council has ruled that the independance of administrative judges is a constitutional principle in the same way as the judicial judge [1, see point 6].

[0] of course if we need to be really technical, administrative judges are magistrates see: 'Les membres des tribunaux administratifs et des cours administratives d'appel sont des magistrats [...]' https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/codes/article_lc/LEGIARTI0000... ; but members of the Conseil d'Etat, an administrative court, are not administrative judges - they're conseillers d'Etat.

[1] https://www.conseil-constitutionnel.fr/decision/1980/80119DC...

Re: Secret 3D scans in the French Supreme Court

#176

Post by kergonath » Fri, Oct 18, 2024, 6:11 PM UTC

rtsil wrote: post #157

kergonath wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm also surprised at how nonchalantly the french supreme (!!) court seems to cope with the museum just ignoring their two month deadline for three months in the new trial... The conseil d’État is nothing like a Supreme Court. It is an administrative body, not a court of law. This phrase was used because it was easier than explaining how it actually works to a presumably mostly-American audience. France has a civil…

For the purpose of this matter, the Conseil d'État is a court, not an administrative body, it is the highest level and last resort of jurisdiction for administrative law, i.e. the law pertaining to relations between citizens and the State or the local governments. It intervenes as the highest appelate court of administrative tribunals. Its members are judges and their decisions are judgement. But the Conseil d'État h…

> Its members are judges and their decisions are judgement.

They are civil servants, not magistrates. They don’t have the same independence and are nothing like American judges.

> That's because only criminal court can do that.

That was specifically addressing the contempt of court issue. The Council of State cannot do that. It can make the public institution do something, but it cannot punish the individual. Once the action was deemed illegal, the individual faces disciplinary action from their institution, but the Council does not decide this.

> That doesn't make it any less of a court. A civil court doesn't fine, it only grants damages. That doesn't make it any less of a court.

What makes it not a court in the American sense is that it does not have any magistrate. Commission would be a better word.

Re: Secret 3D scans in the French Supreme Court

#177

Post by jjcm » Fri, Oct 18, 2024, 6:13 PM UTC

RansomStark wrote: post #107

rpigab wrote: post #104

I am a French taxpayer. This is not the most outrageous thing about taxpayer money at work that I learned today. That would be the fact that local branches of the ministry of agriculture require wind turbine builders to put blue dyed water in concrete to make it friendly to all life or something, I'm not sure I understand, it's called Pneumatit®, and I'm not making this up. It's biodynamics, it's biogeology (neither…

> It's homeopathy for concrete you're really not joking Pneumatit® is a liquid additive that permanently anchors a fine biological activity (liveliness) in the concrete Many people experience adverse effects that come from concrete - regardless of the design. This ranges from slightly subliminal discomfort to irritability, inner cold sensations, joint pain, exhaustion and organic disorders. Underlying such sensations…

There's even more:

> The end product, ready for use, has the homeopathic format D7. This is another reason why Pneumatit® does not have any physical or chemical influence on the building material.

https://www.lehm-laden.de/en_GB/pneumatit

They even state that it doesn't have an effect on the physical properties of the material.

Re: Secret 3D scans in the French Supreme Court

#178

Post by dmitrygr » Fri, Oct 18, 2024, 6:16 PM UTC

Given that the museum has ignored all court orders and deadlines and faced no repercussions, what exactly do they expect will happen when the Supreme Court too rules against the museum? Until these court rulings have teeth, it just makes a fun article to read.

A short jail term for the person who heads the museum might motivate them to act better

Re: Secret 3D scans in the French Supreme Court

#179

Post by kergonath » Fri, Oct 18, 2024, 6:19 PM UTC

addcommitpush wrote: post #175

kergonath wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are judges in that they make decisions, but they are not magistrates; they are civil servants. The way it works is also quite different from the cour de cassation . There is not really a prosecution, a defense, or parties civiles . It’s its own thing, partly for philosophical reasons related to separation of powers, and partly for practical reasons under the Ancien Régime. The kings did not want magistrates to i…

I don't think we should be missing the forest for the trees. Yes, because of historical reasons, _technically_ "magistrat" refers specifically to magistrates from the judicial branch and not all judges [0]. This is surely interesting yet administrative judges do the same job of presiding over court proceedings before them and being independent from the political authorities. Procedure is different between the two bra…

> This is surely interesting yet administrative judges do the same job of presiding over court proceedings before them and being independent from the political authorities.

Not really. The fact that members of the Council of State are not magistrates comes up regularly, because it does limit their independence. It works so far because everyone behaves, but this would cause a serious crisis if France one days ends up with someone like Trump or Boris Johnson, who is willing to stop doing the right thing and just use any weapon they can find. To add insult to injury in this case, the supreme body deciding on disciplinary actions in public institutions is the Council of State itself.

> of course if we need to be really technical, administrative judges are magistrates see: 'Les membres des tribunaux administratifs et des cours administratives d'appel sont des magistrats [...]'

This is about the tribunaux administratifs (lower courts) and cours administrative d’appel (appellate courts, the 2nd layer). The conseil d’État sits on top and is different.

Re: Secret 3D scans in the French Supreme Court

#180

Post by addcommitpush » Fri, Oct 18, 2024, 6:27 PM UTC

cinntaile wrote: post #118

bambax wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's different in many many ways. And there are not just one, but four courts of last resort in France: - Cour de Cassation, for civil matters - Conseil d'État, for matters regarding the administration / the State - Tribunal des Conflits: tasked with deciding who's right when the Cour de Cassation and the Conseil d'État disagree - Conseil Constitutionnel: issues rulings about the constitutionality of laws, both n…

If it's the final court for civil matters in France I would argue it's still a supreme court.

That's what the law say anyway:

    Le Conseil d'Etat est la juridiction administrative suprême.

(see: https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/codes/article_lc/LEGIARTI0000...)

Note that's it's not civil matters but matters related to government action (from say, basic rights to labor disputes for State employees or citizenship issues).