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HBO documentary suggests Bitcoin creator Satoshi Nakamoto is Peter Todd

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Re: HBO documentary suggests Bitcoin creator Satoshi Nakamoto is Peter Todd

#171
post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a standard request. I find your response confusing. Every other party that produced messages from Satoshi produced the headers without being asked or on request. Particularly when people are assigning a lot of significance to the timestamps the headers are quite interesting. As far as key rotation goes, never to miss an XKCD386 opportunity: It's often pretty easy to go find historic keys and them confirm that…

Which part of "there are no signatures" did you not understand Gregory? And stop replying to yourself with sock puppets, it's unseemly, we know Midnight Magic and variants is you.

Please provide the headers for the message rather than deflecting with personal attacks and shameful false accusations. Also please withdraw the maliciously false accusation regarding midnight, you can't possibly believe that is true (considering that midnight was a pillar of the bitcoin IRC spaces long predating me).

All this drama is completely unnecessary. I made a complete regular and uncontroversial request. You could have just responded in kind.

Re: HBO documentary suggests Bitcoin creator Satoshi Nakamoto is Peter Todd

#172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You obviously haven't done much research on the topic. There are far, far more likely candidates, like Len Sassaman. Anyone that knew a bit about Bitcoin at the time could have made that BitcoinTalk post, it's not a "slip up". Also, Satoshi almost certainly lived in the Benelux region when he released Bitcoin. See this paper for some actual evidence-based research: https://arxiv.org/pdf/2206.10257

lol, no.

to which aspect does the lol correspond?

Re: HBO documentary suggests Bitcoin creator Satoshi Nakamoto is Peter Todd

#173
post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s actually very likely in my opinion that Todd could easily figure out where he was that specific day and there would be corroborating evidence of that. Yet you can't produce it for yourself, you don't see the issue here? I know I absolutely cannot prove anything about my whereabouts on most random days in 2009, I might be able to reason out where I was on some days but even that wouldn't result in transferable…

Let’s clarify a few things. First, thank you for posting on HN and for your time. I also want to express my deep respect for you and all developers who helped build Bitcoin. I recognize it has come at a personal cost. A brief disclaimer - I’m not a significant open-source developer, but my life trajectory is entirely due to open source software, and I’ve achieved substantial financial success through my C++ and Linux…

> Satoshi’s 1.1 million coins are the elephant in the room

The 1.1 million claim is a part of Craig Wright's fraud and is pedantically false (it's too many coins-- we know too many other owners).

What is actually known is that starting two weeks after bitcoin's release and running up to about a year after some person or organization mined with custom software that makes it possible to identify their blocks. None of these 13 thousand-ish blocks have been spent (the ish comes from the fact that the fingerprint is fuzzy). There is no evidence connecting this mining to Satoshi specifically though it's surely not a entirely crazy guess. The blocks that are known to be connected to Satoshi aren't part of this pattern.

The people most interested in this seem to be the pathological liars and so the claim gets continually expanded. Someone on reddit a day or two ago even insisted it was 2 million coins.

In any case even at the upper limit of common (false) claims it's 5% of all coins. Other entities are known to control more coins than that and it normally goes without remark. I think your argument is a grasping justification for abusive and unethical conduct, and the _pursuit_ of Satoshi is a gross prurient interest. You're not entitled to Satoshi's identity, full stop. If that makes you not want to use Bitcoin-- that's a choice you're free to make, no one is forcing you to use it.

> This is strange because we’re discussing Satoshi’s code from 2008/2009, not C++17 or contemporary features.

No. You're being sloppy. You and HBO have faulted Todd for making public statements about not being much of a C++ coder. These were statements made in the context of bitcoin conferences regarding his own ongoing contributions to Bitcoin. HBO implied that this was untrue and deceptive and constituted evidence that he was Satoshi because he was trying to mislead people about his background.

When it comes to "could someone have done it" -- it doesn't go very far, as Satoshi could have learned C++ specifically for that project precisely because it wasn't their preferred language. If your willing to believe a very young and inexperienced person could have created Bitcoin (still learning as they went) then someone writing in something other than their favorite language should seem even more likely.

In any case, feel free to go find some actual similarity in published code and bring it up. Absent that it's just a bunch of handwaving befitting only the code-illiterate.

> People who know me in real life but lack deep technical knowledge have asked me this seriously it seemed. It was amusing. One pointed out I used hashes of hashes in a tool I wrote at work! Very suspicious!

Yes, so you've seen the kind of fallacious reasoning people can engage in. "I know of a couple technical people interest in bitcoin, among them this one has some extra factor-- so they're probably satoshi". It doesn't just happen to people who lack deep technical knowledge.

> If someone genuinely believes this, what would I do? I’d release evidence to prove I’m not Satoshi. It’s not particularly difficult,

You keep reiterating how easy it is to produce proof. But when you first did it I requested you do so. You still haven't!

> I carry multiple weapons for self-defense.

The concern of many people isn't just the self-defense. It's what comes after. So you killed the idiot that was threatening you? Now you have to live with the consequence of that, which may include arrest and imprisonment. People who kill in obvious self defense still often go through a world of trouble for it.

Certainly it's better to be alive and charged with murder than dead. But it is very bad.

Harms like those created by being accused of being satoshi can be somewhat mitigated but they can't be eliminated except by not making the accusation in the first place.

The most recent attack pattern used by the cryptokidnappers seems to be to break into your home when you're not there and hide. You come home and find yourself facing a gun. It's pretty hard to secure against that without considerable cost.

> Can you explain this?

Yes, I can: https://www.wired.com/story/was-bitcoin-created-by-this-inte... search maxwell.

> At what date we have no idea, most likely after Hal’s passing

Certainly after because the particular signing algorithm used postdates him.

Le roux was in custody since September 2013, I don't think there is any reason to believe he was involved in that message. Considering that the message is reported to have been made public by an investor that previously went to prison from securities fraud, my assumption is that the key was purchased from the extortionists that attacked Hal's family and then was deployed in that manner in lame market manipulation attempt that was thwarted by competent journalism.

> Are you sure identifying Satoshi isn’t the right thing to do?

As much as one can be sure of anything of that sort, but it's also an irrelevant question: I don't know who Satoshi is, and as far as I can tell no one does.

Re: HBO documentary suggests Bitcoin creator Satoshi Nakamoto is Peter Todd

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which part of "there are no signatures" did you not understand Gregory? And stop replying to yourself with sock puppets, it's unseemly, we know Midnight Magic and variants is you.

It’s curious that nullc is simultaneously arguing that people shouldn’t imply Hal is Satoshi and insinuating your email timestamp alibi for Hal is questionable. The position of petertodd, Adam Back, and nullc appears to be that investigating the identity of Satoshi is pointless and shouldn’t be encouraged. If you have the time you might be interested in a discussion I’ve been having with him about identifying Satoshi…

I don't have a position on the email timestamp stuff: I can't have one because no one has ever seen the headers, and you shouldn't either.

I don't think there is anything curious about the fact that I'm unwilling to lie or intentionally exaggerate my beliefs simply because it would further another preference of mine. -- The request for the headers on that message goes back long before anyone ever suggested any interaction with Hal.

Rather, I think it would be "curious" and show a lack of integrity if I were to just stop asking a question after a situation was created where my request was no longer in the interest of my other arguments.

Re: HBO documentary suggests Bitcoin creator Satoshi Nakamoto is Peter Todd

#175
post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s curious that nullc is simultaneously arguing that people shouldn’t imply Hal is Satoshi and insinuating your email timestamp alibi for Hal is questionable. The position of petertodd, Adam Back, and nullc appears to be that investigating the identity of Satoshi is pointless and shouldn’t be encouraged. If you have the time you might be interested in a discussion I’ve been having with him about identifying Satoshi…

I don't have a position on the email timestamp stuff: I can't have one because no one has ever seen the headers, and you shouldn't either. I don't think there is anything curious about the fact that I'm unwilling to lie or intentionally exaggerate my beliefs simply because it would further another preference of mine. -- The request for the headers on that message goes back long before anyone ever suggested any intera…

I agree we should see headers. I support your request for email headers with or without DKIM signatures.

I suspect we actually agree on many items.

I also support your question about the debug.log IP leak. I hope to study that in the next few days. That IP leak if real is probably the strongest lead we have on Satoshi.

Do you support unmasking Satoshi if it is possible?

Re: HBO documentary suggests Bitcoin creator Satoshi Nakamoto is Peter Todd

#176
post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have a position on the email timestamp stuff: I can't have one because no one has ever seen the headers, and you shouldn't either. I don't think there is anything curious about the fact that I'm unwilling to lie or intentionally exaggerate my beliefs simply because it would further another preference of mine. -- The request for the headers on that message goes back long before anyone ever suggested any intera…

I agree we should see headers. I support your request for email headers with or without DKIM signatures. I suspect we actually agree on many items. I also support your question about the debug.log IP leak. I hope to study that in the next few days. That IP leak if real is probably the strongest lead we have on Satoshi. Do you support unmasking Satoshi if it is possible?

> Do you support unmasking Satoshi if it is possible?

No.

The only argument I've heard to justify this which is at all credible is that the ownership of a particular pool very early coins may be a matter of significant public concern. I'm dubious of this argument given that it's a couple percent of the total and people seem to not care at all about other similar consolidations in Bitcoin. And it's normal for very wealthy people to be largely unknown e.g. in the US we have absolutely no idea who most billionaires are, a lot of the supposed lists are just speculation and nonsense. (a fun related story: https://sherwood.news/power/who-died-and-left-the-us-7-billi... )

But for the purpose of this discussion I'll accept that ownership of those coins matters. (I don't think we'd make any progress on debating that)

But if the motivation is those coins, we're not even sure they belong to Satoshi. And to the extent there is a concern it's a concern that their use could be disruptive to the economy, their identity alone is unlikely to help -- like why would Adam Back vs Petertodd matter for that question?

So what I think is that if we think carefully about what all this means and we're honest about it-- this demand for their identity is so that the public can use coercion to make them destroy their coins. The author of the documentary said the quiet part out loud in a surprisingly extortionary sounding tweet: "Satoshi, if you have access, you could burn the stash. Bring an end to this. Protect yourself, protect the network." (https://x.com/CullenHoback/status/1844144664825430242)

I think that kind of coercion would be immoral. But worse than immoral it would be unnecessary:

If the users of Bitcoin feel so threatened by these unmoved early coins that they're willing to ungratefully violate privacy of Bitcoin's creator, a person who might not even own those coins, in an act which might harm the creator seriously but not even address the concern ... they could instead just adopt a fork that makes those early unmoved coins forever inaccessible. -- and perhaps let whomever owns them come out to argue against it.

(Heck, people have already created such forks though that wasn't their motivation-- some forks have diverted all not-recently moved coins to the forks creators, as a kind of premine).

The fact that they haven't indicates that they don't feel that way. To summarize, I think trying to pursue Satoshi's identity is:

An ungrateful attack on someone who gifted the world with something new and interesting and whom wronged no one, motivated by fear of some trove of coins that may not even belong to the target, a fear which would not be addressed by merely knowing their identity (even assuming the coins were theirs), and if it does address it-- it would probably be through coercively depriving them of their coins by subjecting Satoshi to threat and attack... when all along the people supposedly being protected could, if they cared about it enough, simply neutralize "the threat" themselves by adopting a version that didn't have it, or by just not using Bitcoin at all. Clearly they don't feel that strongly.

But attacking someone elses privacy and safety is something many people don't consider much of a cost, I guess.

I just don't buy it.

If it sounds like I've made up my mind on the issue, remember that I've had some 14 years to think about this question.

Re: HBO documentary suggests Bitcoin creator Satoshi Nakamoto is Peter Todd

#177
post #159
post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Times is not an obscure paper, but if you'd like some fodder: the headline Satoshi used is from the print edition rather than the online edition which was different. That said, Satoshi was clearly extremely diligent in concealing their identity, and so they may well have purposefully decided to use a headline that they wouldn't have had ordinary access too-- when someone is trying to conceal themselves it creates…

Satoshi connected to IRC from a residential IP address in Los Angeles in 2009. So there was a point in time where all it would have taken was a subpoena to find him. Now those records probably don't exist. Unless that was a Tor exit or one of those socks5 proxy type services. I remember there was an archive of the Tor consensus files going back really far that I can no longer find, so it'd be possible to check if it…

> Satoshi connected to IRC from a residential IP address in Los Angeles in 2009.

Maybe, that claim is pretty speculative and shouldn't be repeated as established fact.

I agree with the rest of your points, though there were a lot of proxies other than tor. In particular, there were well known forums you could post on to get private proxies -- often used for kinda shady astroturfing and similar. So excluding tor alone isn't sufficient. Tor wouldn't have been as useful for Satoshi's bitcoin usage because he couldn't run a node over it that accepted inbound connections.

Re: HBO documentary suggests Bitcoin creator Satoshi Nakamoto is Peter Todd

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Peter makes it just after joining the form, so he is unlikely to have detailed knowledge of bitcoin. The fact that the inputs, outputs, and fee of a transaction must add up isn't exactly "detailed knowledge" :) I don't think it took me all that long to figure that out when I first tried understanding how Bitcoin worked. And frankly, the core of Bitcoin really isn't all that complex! You can have a very good underst…

> The fact that the inputs, outputs, and fee of a transaction must add up isn't exactly "detailed knowledge" :) They don't have to! (re: txid 5d80a29be1609db91658b401f85921a86ab4755969729b65257651bb9fd2c10d)

That's a coinbase transaction.

Re: HBO documentary suggests Bitcoin creator Satoshi Nakamoto is Peter Todd

#179
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gov/CIA most definitely knows who Satoshi is. Even if he always used TOR/anonymous IPs, when accessing his @gmx.com account, with the number of sign-in's he had, it must be an absolute certainty, that he want through rogue exit nodes or some other de-anonymization methods we are not aware of, but deployed by gov. agencies.

> Gov/CIA most definitely knows who Satoshi is. This is my assumption. It's too critical a question to leave unanswered, from a national security perspective.

Why would he be of interest to national security? He is possibly a rich dude, but beyond that?
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