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Rust needs a web framework

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Re: Rust needs a web framework

#171

Post by akkad33 »

CharlieDigital wrote: post #100
troad wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a fan of Rust for systems programming, but so many people are using Rust for things that are nothing even remotely close to systems programming. So many projects you see being written (or rewritten) in Rust are projects where I just think 'wait, why can't this just have a GC'? And then you look at the code base, and it's all Arc >s, and you can't help at marvel at this, since that's just GC, so what's the benefi…

> I think a lot of what people actually like about Rust, to be honest, is that it's essentially an ML language masquerading as a C-like, with a stellar packaging and tooling story. F# seems like a good option.

F#is not C like and it's tooling and packaging is not as good as rust. Last time I checked it had multiple packaging solutions like paket and nuget. The tooling on vscode can be buggy

Re: Rust needs a web framework

#172

Post by pjmlp »

creatonez wrote: post #57
wongarsu wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is definetly something the article should have drilled down on. Why Rust? I'm sure everyone's tired of hearing why rust is an excellent alternative to c/c++ for new projects, but as an alternative against Python it gets muddier. Rust has a clear advantage in performance and memory footprint and a much better multithreading story, but those are things that aren't high priorities for 95% of web development. That b…

The answer for why folks are so inclined towards doing high-level tasks in Rust... is the type system. Its sensibilities are in a sweet spot that makes it very easy to pull off huge refactors. It was also a lot of people's first introduction to algebraic data types being used in nearly all error handling (its usage of `Result where E implements Error` and lack of nulls or exceptions). It makes a lot of progress towar…

Most of those people aren't aware that the type system is a feature from most ML derived languages since Standard ML is a thing.

All of them with better ergonomics for Web development.

Re: Rust needs a web framework

#173

Post by satvikpendem »

elcritch wrote: post #72
wongarsu wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is definetly something the article should have drilled down on. Why Rust? I'm sure everyone's tired of hearing why rust is an excellent alternative to c/c++ for new projects, but as an alternative against Python it gets muddier. Rust has a clear advantage in performance and memory footprint and a much better multithreading story, but those are things that aren't high priorities for 95% of web development. That b…

> and if we pretend we can't hear the Haskell developers it's one of the best type systems out there Eh, Rust's type system isn't one of the best out there. It's lacking higher kinded types, etc. It's abilities in type level programming are frustratingly limited as well. So it's advanced aside from from Haskell, OCaml, Idris, Scala, etc. Compare to OCaml's effect system for an advanced type system feature.

OCaml's effects are fairly new, and the Rust maintainers are also looking into effect systems. Who knows, we might also get HKTs and dependent types too in the future.

Re: Rust needs a web framework

#174

Post by pjmlp »

wongarsu wrote: post #24
devjab wrote: post #10

> I like to make silly things, and I also like to put in minimal effort for those silly things. I also like to make things in Rust… I think this part is perhaps the silliest part of a very silly article. If you really like to put in a minimal effort then why on earth would you use Rust? If you want efficiency, memory management and a compiled modern language just use Go. Then you won’t even need anything but the stan…

This is definetly something the article should have drilled down on. Why Rust? I'm sure everyone's tired of hearing why rust is an excellent alternative to c/c++ for new projects, but as an alternative against Python it gets muddier. Rust has a clear advantage in performance and memory footprint and a much better multithreading story, but those are things that aren't high priorities for 95% of web development. That b…

Between Rust and Python there are a huge distance full of options with managed compiled languages, with AOT, JIT, or even both AOT and JIT as standard toolchain feature.

Re: Rust needs a web framework

#175

Post by dajonker »

dartos wrote: post #2

Isn’t there a rust rails clone? Yeah, it’s called loco https://loco.rs/ FWIW I prefer the pile of libraries. Big frameworks are good for scrappy startups trying to push their product out asap, but in most of situations, I’d like a lower abstraction system to build on.

What makes Rails (and similar frameworks in other languages) great is the large number of companies using it in production and having many people contribute to it. It therefore is very feature complete and works for a lot of use cases and edge cases. For everything that Rails does not do out of the box, there is a great ecosystem of libraries. Rust has no such framework. There is often just one person pulling the whole project and the number of active contributors is very small. This carries some risks and might mean that you end up having to do a lot of plumbing yourself.

Re: Rust needs a web framework

#176

Post by satvikpendem »

bigiain wrote: post #106
phoronixrly wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Show me where I asked for a framework that magically turns Rust into Ruby. The person has created a list of (high-level!) features that they need. None of them are 'no borrow checker'.

I reckon "Rust on Rails" would be a great idea. It'd be cool to have an out of the box "90% of what a website needs" toolkit that means writing your 10% custom code/secret-sauce in a modern code security obsessed language. Even if it is opinionated and "batteries included" in ways that make some things annoying. I have built many projects that start with a WordPress install, to piggyback it's CMS, user management, an…

Loco.rs is what you're looking for.

Re: Rust needs a web framework

#177

Post by pjmlp »

fallingsquirrel wrote: post #108
throw10920 wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The answer for why folks are so inclined towards doing high-level tasks in Rust... is the type system. TypeScript has an equally powerful type system. Python's type system is almost as good. Both have are significantly more productive when it comes to writing software, and have bigger ecosystems and lower learning curves. > It makes a lot of progress towards the goal of "make invalid states unrepresentable", which…

> TypeScript has an equally powerful type system. How does TypeScript's type system prevent shared mutable state?

How does Rust's type system prevent shared mutable state for out-of-process data common in distributed computing?

It doesn't.

Re: Rust needs a web framework

#178

Post by pjmlp »

echelon wrote: post #46
PedroBatista wrote: post #42

Possible unpopular opinion: Rust is a systems language, doing "web work" in Rust is a waste of effort as there are much better languages and ecosystems for that.

Counter-point: developing web services in Rust is just as easy as doing it in Go or Java, yet you now have an excellent type system (sum types!), an excellent package manager, and extremely good performance. You can do dependency injection in Rust to share connection pools just like you would in Java, and it's super simple to write threaded background tasks. Google gave a talk recently that said they measured Rust de…

Anyone on JVM has already Kotlin or Scala for that.

Likewise on CLR with F#.

Re: Rust needs a web framework

#179

Post by satvikpendem »

kuon wrote: post #55

Just use Phoenix and live view. Prototype is easy and fast. Scales well to very large user base on a single node. Interactive client side without even writing JS. I love rust, I really do, I use it for all kind of things. But for web app, the Erlang architecture is so well designed and mature you cannot compete. Also we use rust and zig from Erlang with native modules for video processing and AI, the elixir/Erlang "s…

No types in Elixir, I think a better comparison is actually Gleam, it is Rust-like in type system but is built on and interoperable with Erlang/OTP.

Re: Rust needs a web framework

#180

Post by satvikpendem »

the__alchemist wrote: post #28

100%! I love Rust, but I will still use Python for backends because of Django. Rocket, Actix, Axum etc are more like Flask, but without Flask's integrations for the services. I don't understand why there are so many competing microframeworks; one of them should have IMO pivoted to a Django-like a while ago.

Loco.rs?
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