Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence • Hacker News Board

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#171

Post by sparrish » Wed, Sep 25, 2024, 10:23 PM UTC

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #78

SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if we had 100% certainty what crimes are 100% worth death? Not even that is simple. If you want to consider cost, it costs literal millions to execute someone.

Plus what of the potential profit? The guilty person could be a teenager making a silly mistake who could grow up to become the next Einstein. Insert Bill Gates' mugshot here, who is responsible for hundreds of thousands of jobs and bringing billions into the US / worldwide economy. But he was guilty and it would probably have been better to execute him because what if he did something else wrong?

They don't give the death penalty to teenagers making 'silly mistake's. It's a sentence not handed out without weighty thought and only to those who knowingly and intentionally take life.

I'm so tired of the "next Einstein" pithy replies. These are adults who have done heinous crimes against innocent people. Justice requires severe consequences.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#172

Post by nemothekid » Wed, Sep 25, 2024, 10:23 PM UTC

slibhb wrote: post #86

TrackerFF wrote: post #47

So it seems that the original case rested on the following: - Williams GF witness testimony, that Williams confessed to her. - Jailhouse witness testimony, that Williams had confessed to them. - That Williams had items (purse, laptop, etc.) in his car, on the day or day after the murder. But no DNA evidence? A death penalty seems pretty egregious, when you have that kind of evidence. Seems like there's plenty of reas…

That seems like pretty strong evidence to me!

It's unfortunate that a lot of the messaging has shifted to he's innocent, where I believe the right message (and far less viral message), is the government has not shown enough evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that the death penalty is warranted. I don't believe in the death penalty because I don't think the state should have the authority to execute citizens and even moreso when a very high bar of culpability hasn't been reached.

In this quest for vengeance I think people forget these rules are in place for the State to not abuse it's powers. I'm not against the death penalty because I'm a hippy vegan. I'm against it because I don't think it's a power the state should be able to wield.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#173

Post by ImJamal » Wed, Sep 25, 2024, 10:24 PM UTC

maximinus_thrax wrote: post #143

slibhb wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That seems like pretty strong evidence to me!

For a civil case, probably. But for a criminal case, the threshold is 'beyond reasonable doubt'. Plenty of reasonable doubt in there.

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Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#174

Post by slibhb » Wed, Sep 25, 2024, 10:28 PM UTC

kelthuzad wrote: post #155

sparrish wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

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Sentencing a man to death when there is reasonable doubt of his guilt is a miscarriage of justice. "A crime scene covered with forensic evidence contained no link to Mr. Williams. Mr. Williams has been seeking to prove his innocence throughout the 23 years he has spent on Missouri’s death row. On August 11, 1998, Felicia Gayle, a former reporter for the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, was found stabbed to death in her home.…

It's pure speculation that the partial DNA profile recovered years after the murder came from the murderer.

The police recovered the murdered woman's property from his car. How did it get there? Either it was an elaborate frame-up or a career criminal murdered a woman and stole her property.

You (and The Innocence Project) apparently think that DNA must be found at the crime scene in order to convict. But is it the case that DNA will always be found? I doubt it. To me, the detailed testimony of Williams' girlfriend combined with the dead woman's property in his car puts Williams' guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. I'm disappointed in The Innocence Project -- seems like a lot of spin in that link.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#175

Post by CSMastermind » Wed, Sep 25, 2024, 10:29 PM UTC

diogenes_atx wrote: post #104

knodi123 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's plenty of evidence. He confessed to his girlfriend, and a cellmate. He pawned the victim's possessions. He was seen disposing of bloody clothes. He already had 15 felony convictions in addition to offenses related to Ms. Gayle's murder: robbery (2), armed criminal action (2), assault (2), burglary (4), stealing (3), stealing a motor vehicle, and unlawful use of a weapon. Now, as to whether this evidence is so…

As stated in the article written by the legal scholars at the Innocence Project: > "There is no reliable evidence proving that Marcellus Williams committed the crime for which he is scheduled to be executed on Sept. 24. The State destroyed or corrupted the evidence that could conclusively prove his innocence and the available DNA and other forensic crime-scene evidence does not match him." DNA evidence is based on pr…

It's sad to me that the Innocence Project, instead of being a neutral third party investigating and then pushing back against wrongful convictions, have just become an all out 'stop the death penalty' advocacy group.

Ultimately I think this undermines their cause and hurts their ability to save truly innocent people.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#176

Post by ImJamal » Wed, Sep 25, 2024, 10:30 PM UTC

spacechild1 wrote: post #129

anonzzzies wrote: post #57

Still not sure with so many of the (esp right leaning) in the US claiming to be christian, can also accept this as a punishment. But I get nonsense begets more nonsense.

Also, it's often the same people who claim to be "pro life".

It is pro innconcent life, not pro murderer life? Pro life and pro choice are just marketing terms. People who are pro-choice aren't pro not wearing a seat belt (well some may be, but it has nothing to do with the topic). It has to do with abortion and only abortion.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#177

Post by ImJamal » Wed, Sep 25, 2024, 10:32 PM UTC

edm0nd wrote: post #112

kergonath wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being Christian is about forgiving and loving your neighbours, isn’t it?

I dont think so really. The Crusades would have never happened if that were true.

The crusades (at least the earlir ones) were primarily about protecting Christians who were being attacked and having their land taken by Muslims.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#178

Post by maximinus_thrax » Wed, Sep 25, 2024, 10:33 PM UTC

ImJamal wrote: post #173

maximinus_thrax wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For a civil case, probably. But for a criminal case, the threshold is 'beyond reasonable doubt'. Plenty of reasonable doubt in there.

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He doesn't need to provide any explanation for anything. The burden of proof is on the government. Possession of property is not proof of murder. It is circumstantial evidence. He might have come across the property, he might have stolen the property, etc.. Do you understand what reasonable doubt is? Did you serve on a jury?

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#179

Post by formerly_proven » Wed, Sep 25, 2024, 10:34 PM UTC

sparrish wrote: post #156

rob74 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you read the article, the "evidence of guilt" is equally flimsy. And if we take "innocent until proven guilty" seriously, that means he not only should not have been executed, but should never have gone to jail in the first place...

A jury of his peers thought there was enough evidence to convict him and they did. At that point, he's "guilty until proven innocent".

This seems like an exceedingly bad hill to die on. Curtis Flowers was convicted and sentenced to death six times for the same murder by juries of his peers, yet he's a free man today.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#180

Post by alistairSH » Wed, Sep 25, 2024, 10:35 PM UTC

ImJamal wrote: post #173

maximinus_thrax wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For a civil case, probably. But for a criminal case, the threshold is 'beyond reasonable doubt'. Plenty of reasonable doubt in there.

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That’s not the way our justice system is supposed to work. We don’t require proof of innocence. We require (or are supposed to require) proof beyond a reasonable doubt of guilt.

Possessing stolen goods should not proof beyond a reasonable doubt of murder.