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Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

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Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#171

Post by b112 »

sweezyjeezy wrote: post #126
dgrin91 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a very naive way of thinking about debt. Cash has a time value. Cash now is worth more than cash later. I have a mortgage. This mortgage is worth more than the cash I own. That doesn't mean I'm bankrupt. The mortgage is paid on a fixed schedule over 30 years, and during those 30 years I'll have a home and be able to accrue other assets. If I didn't get a mortgage then I would still be saving for my home. The…

I think it's rarely valid to compare countries' economics to your own personal finance, macroeconomics are a lot more complicated. Example: for employed people, going into (or avoiding) debt generally won't affect their yearly wages, but analogously it can for countries (e.g. well spent debt can stimulate economic growth).

The downside of state debt is the downward spiral.

If you spend 1/2 your tax income on just servicing the debt, that means either fewer services for people, or borrowing yet more, just to keep things going.

If you borrow more, then it gets even worse.

I really prefer that 1/2 my tax bill doesn't go to interest payments.

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#172

Post by InsomniacL »

mdhb wrote: post #110
jajko wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are setting up an example for other companies doing same. Fuck with EU taxes, we will fuck you up (and lets be honest here, 13 billions absolutely nothing for Apple given 500+ million wealthy market they cater to). Law often does that to perpetrators. Ireland tried to save the shady deal by refusing the money it should have received (corruption in plain sight, with these sums its not unexpected it goes to highes…

€13,000,000,000 is not “absolutely nothing”. It’s almost twice the entire EU defence fund budget. And just to be clear.. this is really an example of how badly Apple were actively robbing society through their tax avoidance bullshit.

> It’s almost twice the entire EU defence fund budget.

The EU defence spend in 2022 was €240 billion.

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#174

Post by InsomniacL »

roel_v wrote: post #163
jajko wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are setting up an example for other companies doing same. Fuck with EU taxes, we will fuck you up (and lets be honest here, 13 billions absolutely nothing for Apple given 500+ million wealthy market they cater to). Law often does that to perpetrators. Ireland tried to save the shady deal by refusing the money it should have received (corruption in plain sight, with these sums its not unexpected it goes to highes…

"13 billions absolutely nothing for Apple" LOL no there is not a single company or person in the world for whom 13 BILLION dollars is 'absolutely nothing'.

> LOL no there is not a single company or person in the world for whom 13 BILLION dollars is 'absolutely nothing'.

Apple's revenue last year alone was $383 Billion.

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#175

Post by kamikazeturtles »

moomin wrote: post #140
Iulioh wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its just the prisoner dilemma. If you don't your competition will. We just need more spine in the country's legislation to close ANY loophole, because this wasn't illegal tax evasion, it was legal tax ellusion. The point is that EU judged this unfair by Ireland and that effectively it stole revenue from other European counties to favor jobs in ireland. Basically saying "you (country) can't have a lower tax rate than…

A good way of thinking about the EU is as a solution to the prisoner's dilemma.

Do they tax LVMH? Or fine it for monopolistic practices?

The EU is a pretty one-sided solution to the prisoner's dilemma

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#176

Post by jokethrowaway »

Iulioh wrote: post #92
andy_ppp wrote: post #51

It would just be really good if companies stopped avoiding tax. Most countries are already pretty much bankrupt - it's worth thinking about for every debt (US National Debt is $35.35 trillion!!) there is a rich person on the end of it with the loan as an asset earning interest. If companies avoid tax and rich people avoid tax it means more tax for normal people who work for a living.

Its just the prisoner dilemma. If you don't your competition will. We just need more spine in the country's legislation to close ANY loophole, because this wasn't illegal tax evasion, it was legal tax ellusion. The point is that EU judged this unfair by Ireland and that effectively it stole revenue from other European counties to favor jobs in ireland. Basically saying "you (country) can't have a lower tax rate than…

That will never work because the powerful will lobby the politicians to add some new loophole.

The only solution is to NOT have taxes, NOT have a government and then the market is fair for everyone. Unless you are into anarchy / voluntarism you won't like this solution, so keep enjoying your broken system with increasing inequality between the top 0.01% who colludes with the government and the rest - while the middle class gets their money stolen to pay for both rich and poor.

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#177

Post by beAbU »

Supernaut wrote: post #148
dist-epoch wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Selling phones in Poland and paying taxes in Ireland is not competition, it's tax arbitrage.

That's... literally how every company in the EU operates. If Volkswagen, incorporated in Germany, sells a car in Poland, they're not required to pay a corresponding sliver of their net profits to the Polish exchequer. It all stays in Germany.

Surely there is VAT on that sale that is paid to Poland?

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#178

Post by jltsiren »

Aerroon wrote: post #131
andy_ppp wrote: post #51

It would just be really good if companies stopped avoiding tax. Most countries are already pretty much bankrupt - it's worth thinking about for every debt (US National Debt is $35.35 trillion!!) there is a rich person on the end of it with the loan as an asset earning interest. If companies avoid tax and rich people avoid tax it means more tax for normal people who work for a living.

Maybe governments need to stop spending 40-50% of the entire GDP? For example, the US federal government + state governments spend about $10 trillion a year. The US has a GDP of about $25 trillion. And the US isn't exactly known as a high tax country. France is estimated to be at 58%...

Those numbers are not directly comparable. GDP is a measure of added value, not spending. Public sector spending may be ~50% of the GDP, but private sector spending is something like ~200%, making public sector ~20% of the total.

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#179

Post by quonn »

piltdownman wrote: post #120
quonn wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea was that these big companies and the Irish government obey the law.

All tax treaties and agreements between countries (including intra-EU) are bilateral country to country agreements. Most are refreshed every 3-7 years based on OECD (or EU) recommended standards. Ireland's laws and treatment are 100% compliant. Rather than competing and reducing their tax rates countries like France prefer to moan, as politically they can’t be seen to favour big bad businesses. This of course was no…

Look, it's nice that Ireland is finally not a poor country anymore.

That's primarily due to EU politics and support.

It is, however, economically nowhere even close to France or Germany, no matter how large you think the "tech job" market there is [0].

> If any one of our EU or the other non EU countries were really dissatisfied with Ireland, they have the right to withdraw at any time.

Who should withdraw from what?

[0] For the facts regarding economic strength, read this document by the central bank of Ireland. https://www.centralbank.ie/docs/default-source/publications/...

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#180

Post by fredski42 »

InsomniacL wrote: post #129
izacus wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain where exactly did Ireland gain benefit from not collecting these taxes?

You can google why do countries give tax breaks. Are you suggesting that Ireland did not benefit from this illegal deal?

> You can google

Can we write “search”? Google is hardly a usefull search engine anymore.

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