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No "Hello", No "Quick Call", and No Meetings Without an Agenda

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Re: No "Hello", No "Quick Call", and No Meetings Without an Agenda

#171
post #5

At a certain point it just doesn't make sense to over-optimize for productivity, when the sacrifice (being pleasant & accessible to coworkers) isn't worth the gain (more focus time coding).

At a certain point it just doesn't make sense to over-optimize for being highly interruptible, when the sacrifice (productivity) isn't worth the gain (satisfy outdated notions of office etiquette designed by extroverts who want to vampire other people's attention unnecessarily).

Re: No "Hello", No "Quick Call", and No Meetings Without an Agenda

#172
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The optimal approach is to ask your question in a public channel . Then all 20 people get to see it at once, they can see if someone else already responded and other people on the team who may have been wondering about something similar also get to see the question and the answer(s).

In my experience, writing in a public channel gets slower responses, if any. Especially if nobody knows the exact solution to your problem. Some people don't have notifications enabled for group chats / public channels, and even if they see the message they may think "someone else will reply". Asking someone directly almost always results in a quick response, even if it is a "I don't know" answer. And an "I don't kno…

Which will lead to the senior colleagues being swamped by questions that a junior could have answered.

Ticket or bust. That way the question can go the proper way from cheap junior supporters to expensive senior ones (if necessary). It can be prioritized, subject to an SLA like time to first answer or time to solution. And the whole ticket can be searched and reused as documentation for identical/similar questions.

Re: No "Hello", No "Quick Call", and No Meetings Without an Agenda

#173
It's also important not to get so caught up in the remote, ivory tower of self-importance of your work/time that you forget maybe interacting with your co-workers is more important than you think, even if it takes up time you'd rather have to do something else. If someone else is paying your salary, your time is probably not THAT important.

I am constantly annoyed by people's poor communication skills, but I find it much more efficient to lead by example and communicated back, sooner rather than be passive aggressive.

No agenda for meeting? Email back or chat in the group channel kindly asking for an agenda, maybe throwing in something useful along with it.

Co-worker sending me one of those "Hiya" type messages, well "Good morning! How are you today?" Sooner or later they get to the point and I schedule a proper meeting about it.

Re: No "Hello", No "Quick Call", and No Meetings Without an Agenda

#174

This particular blog post is probably too snarky to share with most people, but I've had success with gently explaining the same concept to various clients and coworkers, especially ones who are working different with different schedules or time zones. The trick is to frame their behavior as inconvieniencing them rather than you. In other words, if they send you all the details up front, then you can send them a good…

The real trick would be for the company higher-ups to recognize that there is a problem and impose the rules in the original article as binding company policy.

Re: No "Hello", No "Quick Call", and No Meetings Without an Agenda

#175

As a junior i often wrote "Hi, do you have a moment? (ok if not)" in slack (or lync at the time) to senior people when I had questions. I then didn't expect a reply unless the senior person was not busy or bored. If no reply within 5 mins I would ask the next person. I did this when I had a question that perhaps 20 people who I knew could answer, though I had no way of telling who (if anyone) was free to chat somethi…

> "Hi, do you have a moment? (ok if not)"

I was always very puzzled by people who do that instead of just saying “Hi, [short description of the project/question]”.

Especially by junior developers who usually struggle with estimating the importance/complexity of the problems they are trying to solve.

Re: No "Hello", No "Quick Call", and No Meetings Without an Agenda

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You've never been in an office and had a productive, random interaction with a coworker? I absolutely did have these interactions but simply not online.

Same. I have fond memories of working in a small team (~8 engineers) in a single room around 2010-ish. We'd often just walk to each other's desks, read the body language and ask each other "what are you working on?" and just engage in these unscripted, natural discussions that may have resulted in a pair programming session, or a cigarette outside accompanied by some good old-fashioned complaining about management. D…

Walking to someone else workstation is a different thing from the so called "water cooler talk". When you go to or simply turn to the nearby team member (or even far away) you initiate a conversation one way, so you judge when a person is not busy and ask him/her. And then discussion happens. This is not unlike a call to that same person (you can ping him in chat to clarify if he is busy) and in general is a close enough substitute for office, at least remembering that for that small quality of life improvement every person mush pay with full 30 awake days per years of wasted time for commute.

But the original proposition by the RTO managers is different. They posit that such spontaneous talks happen in a place different from any workers workstation, e.g. watercooler or kitchen etc. That is a two way conversation which to happen much check the following - both (or more) persons mush happen to go to the same place at the same time, and they both must have a topic to talk about in that particular moment. And those linkedin propagandists claim that a lot of such talks are supposedly highly technical about the project itself. Which is honestly never happens in my limited anecdotal experience.

Re: No "Hello", No "Quick Call", and No Meetings Without an Agenda

#177
post #29

We cannot forget that we also loose something with working remotely (say more than 75% of the time) and that is the occasional bumping into each other at the water cooler or in the morning when coming in. These are situations you can artificially create by scheduling calls to socialize etc, but that is still not comparable with being in an actual office. By categorically saying no to quick calls, you're isolating you…

I agree with your take on working remote and how it can hinder spontaneous "group creativity", though I'd argue that the loss of the smoke break did a lot more damage to this than remote work. With that out of the way I just want to say that in decades I've never had a "quick call" which wasn't a humongous waste of my time. It's always some project manager or business process or whatever person who wants to talk abou…

> With that out of the way I just want to say that in decades I've never had a "quick call" which wasn't a humongous waste of my time.

I don't know about that. I tend to find that incoming "quick calls" with peers, even where they've turned out to be anything but quick, tend to be at least reasonably useful. People do always ask first as well, rather than calling out of the blue.

Overall though, I find working as an engineer at home to be an isolating, and increasingly depressing experience. I really like team I'm working with at the moment but we're scattered to the four winds and barely get to spend any time together, so I'm keeping half an eye out for any roles that are local and might involve a bit more facetime.

When I left my last role for the last 3 - 4 months I was going in 2 - 3 times/week after a handful of us made a pledge to do so and, honestly, it's the happiest I've been at work since the beginning of the pandemic.

I wouldn't say I regret leaving - it was definitely time to move on to something new - but I think that experience, versus how I feel at the moment, is somewhat telling.

Re: No "Hello", No "Quick Call", and No Meetings Without an Agenda

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Below a certain threshold, "quick calls" are the best thing to do. Some of the most inspiring discussions come from someone bringing up an issue they have right there and then. Good discussions often start from something that doesn't seem so important, that doesn't have a clear outline from the start. If there isn't the possibility to start a discussion instantly once in a little while, there is a good chance it won'…

>Good discussions often start from something that doesn't seem so important, that doesn't have a clear outline from the start. Yes, but I've never once had a "can we hop on a quick call?" turn into that. Almost every single one of those that I've encountered could've been settled in a handful of chat messages. The things you describe happen to me during unplanned asides in meetings, long-term general chat channels, o…

You're right that it happens much less with calls vs in the office where there is the important signal of physical presence. Personally I only get very few "can we have a quick call" at all. But I feel like it's a culture thing, people shouldn't worry about making a quick call proactively, once in a while. And maybe acceptance will change that remote workers should e.g. have a remote camera always-on. I'm not entirely decided but tend to think it would be a good thing. Maybe it would be more accepted if a person that is being looked at would get an instant signal about it.

Re: No "Hello", No "Quick Call", and No Meetings Without an Agenda

#179
post #29

We cannot forget that we also loose something with working remotely (say more than 75% of the time) and that is the occasional bumping into each other at the water cooler or in the morning when coming in. These are situations you can artificially create by scheduling calls to socialize etc, but that is still not comparable with being in an actual office. By categorically saying no to quick calls, you're isolating you…

It could be that you are working for a very healthy organization where having a quick call is no big deal as they don't happen that frequently. In that context, you are entirely right. If all the quick calls are just that, quick calls from direct team members then this entire article does not apply to you.

However, there are many, many, many (really a lot) of organizations out there that are in various degrees but continuous state of chaos. Things like constantly shifting deadlines, goals changing, roles being poorly defined and various other things.

The sort of company where anyone who cares about their work will find themselves in a boiling frog type of scenario if they are not careful. They try to take up extra work that is not technically part of their role description, or simply by being knowledgeable attract attention.

In those companies where everyone is a continuous state of mild panic it isn't just one "quick call" it is a steady stream of them, interrupted by unannounced actual calls. Or, if you are in the office, people constantly walking by and "quickly" asking for things.

Certainly, when you find yourself in a situation where the documentation is always lacking. If you then make the mistake of writing the few pieces of documentation that actually are useful you suddenly might find yourself in the position of "knowledge holder" where everyone flocks to for their questions. In companies like this knowledge holders then get over asked (with questions often covered in the documentation), making it difficult for them to focus on their work.

In that sort of situation you need to be competent at setting boundaries as companies will often not do that for you. They happily take advantage of someone running 100% of the time, so they don't need the expense of another FTE added to payroll. Or if I'd have to do a slightly less cynical take, because they simply do not realize they are missing an FTE. Or, to go back to a more cynical take, they are filling roles with seat warmers instead of competency.

In a previous organization, I have had to actively enforce what the article suggests and more. Even then I eventually decided to leave as I simply couldn't see a path forward with the company getting their structure in order in time and me keeping my sanity.

A few of the things I started doing (some overlap with the article):

- Set my teams status with a message encouraging people to ask the question, not just greed me. Eventually, I did include a link to one of the "no hello" websites. I think https://nohello.net/en/

- Refuse unannounced teams calls from most people except a few people. I'd hang up and just leave a message along the lines of "hi, bit busy with something at the moment, what was it you are trying to reach me about?".

- Decline meetings without a clear agenda.

- Decline meetings with a clear agenda, but where I was simply not needed. Sometimes it was not related to my responsibilities, I would let them know and if I could, I would forward the meeting to a person that was responsible. In other cases, I simply was not needed in person because the information was already written down somewhere. In that case I'd provide them with the information.

- Decline meetings during my lunch break.

- Decline meetings that overlapped with other meetings in my agenda, specifically stating I was not available due to another meeting.

- Block a few moments in the week in my agenda as "focus time", set those to private meetings. To the credit of the company, they eventually did recognize that a lot of the IT engineering staff was sitting in too many meetings and then as a company policy blocked of two afternoons for everyone as focus time.

- When getting general help requests about things I knew for a fact were written down in documentation, I'd refer them there first. Ask them to go over the documentation first and then let me know if they had specific questions.

To be fair, this was an extremely chaotic and continually panicked company, with a lot of extra things compounding all of this. But it isn't that rare either as I know plenty of people who actually burned out over similar things at various different companies.

Re: No "Hello", No "Quick Call", and No Meetings Without an Agenda

#180
post #14

The level of entitlement in this post is ridiculous. Dude. You're just an engineer from an Engineering department of some company. Nobody's gonna read & apply any special rules of communnicating with you, especially written by yourself (sic!)

It seems reasonable to me. I tell my reports to decline meeting requests unless the invitations include an agenda and a clear goal. If you're asking for 30 minutes or an hour of someone's time, it is only common courtesy to tell them why. If you send someone a message, don't just say "Hi". This is incredibly bad manners in the context of asynchronous communication. Give the recipient an opportunity to prioritize your…

> don't just say "Hi"

Agree, but

> If you don't give someone the information to make an appropriate prioritization decision, all you are doing is inducing anxiety.

Disagree here. I used to think the same "why you only sayibg Hi and not what you want", but I realized it doesnt have to be my problem if I dont let it become one.

You said Hi? Expect a Hello from me sometimes during the day. You needed something urgent? "Why didnt you tell me?". A "Hi" isn't urgent, so I know I dont feel the burden of not being able to assign it a correct priority.

A lot of people have trouble recognizing when their teoubles are really other people troubles in disguise.

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