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The Gervais Principle, or the Office According to “The Office” (2009)

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171–180 of 190 posts

Re: The Gervais Principle, or the Office According to “The Office” (2009)

#171

To be read in conjunction with the Babbler hypothesis - The amount of time some people spend talking gets them into leadership positions. It doesn't matter what they say, just how much they rant on. I read that, and realised how insanely true it is

A related type is the Jargonist, who not only speaks endlessly but in a stream of acronyms, buzz words, and insider coded language.

I prefer Jargonaut

Re: The Gervais Principle, or the Office According to “The Office” (2009)

#172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Losers are not social losers (as in the opposite of “cool”), but people who have struck bad bargains economically – giving up capitalist striving for steady paychecks. Both Michael and Dwight are excellent salesmen, but both struck bad (financial) deals for a steady paycheck. If you've been a loser in previous jobs you gave up much better money for the benefit of executive and shareholders.

> Both Michael and Dwight are excellent salesmen, but both struck bad (financial) deals for a steady paycheck. This model suggests that the only way you can strike a good financial deal is to be an executive (for which you need to be a sociopath). It's a circular proof by definition. > If you've been a loser in previous jobs you gave up much better money for the benefit of executive and shareholders. Did I? This mode…

This model isn't concerned with value produced for the company, but value produced for the employee, and the only relevant metrics in that regard are profit and power. To do anything less than ruthlessly maximize for both makes you a loser in capitalist terms because that's the game of capitalism and you're choosing not to play. To believe in ideals other than profit and power makes you clueless, because those ideals are just levers of control meant to keep the losers in line and you can't see it. To be capable of playing the game and winning requires a sociopathic personality who understands the nature of capitalism and the true purpose of any corporation (amassing wealth and power) and is willing and able exploit both the losers and the clueless.

In any case doesn't actually matter what the company actually does.

Re: The Gervais Principle, or the Office According to “The Office” (2009)

#173

> Today, any time an organization grows too brittle, bureaucratic and disconnected from reality, it is simply killed, torn apart and cannibalized, rather than reformed. I actually think the overall argument of the essay makes more sense when you realize the above comment actually isn't true for the large majority of organizations. Universities, government agencies, big tech monopolies, public sector unions, complacen…

I foundationally disagree with your premise If you look at the composition and charters of these old “institutions” like governments, universities etc… the scope and function, the amount of resources put towards them etc… is very much not static. In fact, they are exceptionally different than they were at their founding, and this is specifically true for universities with how they were funded at the beginning versus…

My brother is an executive at a small private college, where he graduated from and has worked most of his adult life, and in the last two decades it’s leadership, overarching vision and identity, and strategies for securing enrollments have gone through a few fairly major shifts in response to changing economic, political, and social pressures. It has had to be exceptionally agile and adaptable to keep itself relevant and competitive. I think the parent post has a point with regards to the risks of a sclerotic bureaucracy, but the level of no-effort confidence in one’s own survival I think is vanishingly rare in all but the most entrenched institutions.

Re: The Gervais Principle, or the Office According to “The Office” (2009)

#174
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you can't make any useful predictions with it then whatever MBTI measures (or it believes it measures) is... also useless?

I attempted to explain what it is useful for above, but will elaborate. The valuable result is the extreme opposite of your result- it is a therapy or personal development tool that directs you to explore and understand parts of yourself you reject or disapprove of (your “shadow”). It simply quantifies something obvious that you already know: how you consciously see yourself- in a way that guides you to explore aspec…

> The valuable result is the extreme opposite of your result- it is a therapy or personal development tool that directs you to explore and understand parts of yourself you reject or disapprove of (your “shadow”).

Look, I too have read Jung and agree with what you're saying here, but this is emphatically NOT how MBTI tends to be used in corporate settings, which is what everyone else in this thread is talking about.

Re: The Gervais Principle, or the Office According to “The Office” (2009)

#175
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like we forgot (or deprioritized - or maybe never genuinely prioritized) how to NOT have to sync on everything all the time. not everyone needs to be in a group. not everyone in a group needs to be in sync with interests AND personalities AND needs AND beliefs AND... but I see the paradox here: we need to believe the above is true to live happier and more meaningfully

> not everyone needs to be in a group Not everyone is in a civilisation. Few people in a civilisation would rather be in e.g. Sudan or Ethiopia.

Right but I don't need to successfully get along with everyone else in the US for the US to be a successful country.

Lower the sizes of groups and increase async communication, and the burden/overhead of management goes down. Groups small enough can manage themselves, in fact.

Re: The Gervais Principle, or the Office According to “The Office” (2009)

#176
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I attempted to explain what it is useful for above, but will elaborate. The valuable result is the extreme opposite of your result- it is a therapy or personal development tool that directs you to explore and understand parts of yourself you reject or disapprove of (your “shadow”). It simply quantifies something obvious that you already know: how you consciously see yourself- in a way that guides you to explore aspec…

> The valuable result is the extreme opposite of your result- it is a therapy or personal development tool that directs you to explore and understand parts of yourself you reject or disapprove of (your “shadow”). Look, I too have read Jung and agree with what you're saying here, but this is emphatically NOT how MBTI tends to be used in corporate settings, which is what everyone else in this thread is talking about.

I agree, it is being misunderstood and misused. Instead of using it as a tool for deep introspection, it seems to be used for the condescending purpose of “fabricating a mystical 3rd party authority get our idiot employees to notice that people have different personalities and everyone else isn’t just a carbon copy of them.” Which sounds like an irredeemably awful workplace situation, and I don’t envy people in it.

Re: The Gervais Principle, or the Office According to “The Office” (2009)

#177
post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, different people have different idiolects, but I'm glad you can see that the constructions I gave as examples are common in spoken German. > Something that I am annoyed of. It's easier to see these things with more distance and objectivity in a foreign language. Eg think of all the English speakers who complain when people mix up its, it's, they're, their, there in writing and accuse them of 'muddled thinking' o…

> It's easier to see these things with more distance and objectivity in a foreign language. I have a similar opinion about such topics in foreign languages. It's just that I am much less knowledgeable concerning their subtle parts, so I as a non-native speaker can often not be sure whether I am right or I'm not aware of some subtle part of the respective language. Thus I am much more cautious concerning expressing su…

> which is about topics that you learn about in your first weeks of English lessons could indeed come from me.

There's a difference between prescriptivism and descriptivism. Languages are something people, not what grammarians make up in their books.

Please do have a look at the Emonds paper. It's interesting, I promise.

Re: The Gervais Principle, or the Office According to “The Office” (2009)

#178
post #2

Keep in mind that in practice this classification is not perfect, as in you cannot just bucketize people into three categories and declare perfect understanding. You should treat the roles described in the article as archetypes of human behavior.

This is true for any kind of generalization. Having said that, I can really see this at my company. At the beginning I was a high-perfoming loser. Then I realized how things work, and since then I do bare minimum. I wish I could be a sociopath, but I don't have the brains nor the lack of morals to do so. I passionately hate the clueless ones because they stand against everything I believe in. My dream is to save enou…

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Re: The Gervais Principle, or the Office According to “The Office” (2009)

#179

Dilbert! (I know that Scott Adams got chastised for some views/tweets/whatever and I don't care) Now, to the cartoons. I was introduced to them back in 2000 or 2001 by a colleague. We both loved the Monty Pythons, so we had that in common to begin with. Once I read the first few strips, I got hooked. I starting 'seeing' these chars to my colleagues (and to myself). Dilbert has taught me A LOT about psychology and ope…

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Re: The Gervais Principle, or the Office According to “The Office” (2009)

#180
post #146
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with the parent poster, the author sounds very bitter. Might not be true, they might be trying at humour and I haven't got it. But I think doing the minimum you can get away with is playing with fire. Your colleagues will resent you. You're also sending a signal to everyone that will be remembered. Maybe a colleague will start a business or move to another place one day. Are they going to employ the minimum e…

> Your colleagues will resent you Why would they? We're all adults and all more or less understand the rules of the game. And in rare cases in my career when the company culture was all about working long hours and living at work, I just tend not to stick in such places for long

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