Dumb question: let’s say I am in charge of procurement for a significant amount of machines, do I not have the option of ordering machines from three generations back? Are older (proven reliable) processors just not available because they’re no longer made, like my 1989 Camry?
July 2024 Update on Instability Reports on Intel Core 13th/14th Gen Desktop CPUs
171–180 of 216 posts
Re: July 2024 Update on Instability Reports on Intel Core 13th/14th Gen Desktop CPUs
#172I find it hard to believe that it actually is a microcode issue. Mostly because Intel has way too much motivation to pass it off as a microcode issue, as they can fix a microcode issue for free, by pushing out a patch. If it's an actual hardware issue, then Intel will be forced to actually recall all the faulty CPUs, which could cost them billions. The other reason, is that it took them way too long to give details.…
> I find it hard to believe that it actually is a microcode issue. They learned a lot from the Pentium disaster, even if it's a hardware issue, they can address it with microcode at least, which is just as good.
Except normally the result of a microcode workaround is that the chip no longer performs at its claimed/previously-measured level. Not "as good" by any standard.
For example, Intel CPU + Spectre mitigation is not "as good" as a CPU that didn't have the vulnerability in the first place.
Re: July 2024 Update on Instability Reports on Intel Core 13th/14th Gen Desktop CPUs
#173Reminds me of Sudden Northwood Death Syndrome, 2002. Looks like history may be repeating itself, or at least rhyming somewhat. Back then, CPUs ran on fixed voltages and frequencies and only overclockers discovered the limits. Even then, it was rare to find reports of CPUs killed via overvolting, unless it was to an extreme extent --- thermal throttling, instability, and shutdown (THERMTRIP) seemed to occur before act…
> Back then, CPUs ran on fixed voltages and frequencies and only overclockers discovered the limits. Even then, it was rare to find reports of CPUs killed via overvolting, unless it was to an extreme extent --- thermal throttling, instability, and shutdown (THERMTRIP) seemed to occur before actual damage, preventing the latter from happening.
Oh the memories. I had a Thunderbird-core Athlon with a stock frequency of (IIRC) 1050Mhz. It was stable at 1600Mhz, and I ran it that way for years. I was able to get it to 1700Mhz, but then my CPU's stability depended on ambient temperatures. When the room got hot in the summer my workstation would randomly kernel panic.
Re: July 2024 Update on Instability Reports on Intel Core 13th/14th Gen Desktop CPUs
#174Is there any info on how to diagnose this problem? Having just put together a computer with the 14900KF, I really don't want to swap it out if not necessary.
There is no reliable way to diagnose this issue with the 14th gen, the chip slowly degrades over time and you start getting more and more (usually gpu driver under windows) crashes. I believe the easy way might be to run decompression stress tests if I remember correctly from Wendell's (Level1Techs) video.
I highly recommend going into your motherboard right now and manually setting your configurations to the current intel recommendation to prevent it from degrading to the point where you'd need to RMA it. I have a 14900K and it took about 2.5 months before it started going south and it was getting worse by the DAY for me. Intel has closed my RMA ticket since changing the bios settings to very-low-compared-to-what-the-original-is has made the system stable again, so I guess I have a 14900K that isn't a high end chip anymore.
Below are the configs intel provided to me on my RMA ticket that have made my clearly degraded chip stable again:
CEP (Current Excursion Protection)> Enable. eTVB (Enhanced Thermal Velocity boost)> Enable. TVB (Thermal Velocity boost)>Enable. TVB Voltage Optimization> Enable. ICCMAX Unilimited bit>Disable. TjMAX Offset> 0. C-States (Including C1E) >Enable. ICCMAX> 249A. ICCMAX_APP>200A. Power limit 1 (PL1)>125W. Power limit 2 (PL2)>188W
Re: July 2024 Update on Instability Reports on Intel Core 13th/14th Gen Desktop CPUs
#175Dumb question: let’s say I am in charge of procurement for a significant amount of machines, do I not have the option of ordering machines from three generations back? Are older (proven reliable) processors just not available because they’re no longer made, like my 1989 Camry?
Yeah, 12th gen is probably still available.
Re: July 2024 Update on Instability Reports on Intel Core 13th/14th Gen Desktop CPUs
#176Remains to be seen how the microcode patch affects performance, and how these CPUs that have been affected by over-voltage to the point of instability will have aged in 6 months, or a few years from now. More voltage generally improves stability, because there is more slack to close timing. Instability with high voltage suggests dangerous levels. A software patch can lower the voltage from this point on, but it can't…
Maybe a stretch - but this reminds me of blood sugar regulation for people with type 1 diabetes.
Too low is dangerous because you lose rational thought, and the ability to maintain consciousness or self-recover. However, despite not having the immediate dangers of being low, having high blood sugar over time is the condition which causes long-term organ damage.
Re: July 2024 Update on Instability Reports on Intel Core 13th/14th Gen Desktop CPUs
#177I find it hard to believe that it actually is a microcode issue. Mostly because Intel has way too much motivation to pass it off as a microcode issue, as they can fix a microcode issue for free, by pushing out a patch. If it's an actual hardware issue, then Intel will be forced to actually recall all the faulty CPUs, which could cost them billions. The other reason, is that it took them way too long to give details.…
All modern CPUs come out of the factory with many many bugs. The errata you see published are only the ones that they find after shipping (if you're lucky, they might not even publish all errata). Many bugs are fixed in testing and qualification before shipping. That's how CPU design goes. The way that is done is by pushing as much to firmware as possible, adding chicken switches and fallback paths, and all sorts of…
> As you see it's very hard from the outside to know if something can be reasonably fixed by microcode or to call it a "microcode issue
They claimed:
> a microcode algorithm resulting in incorrect voltage requests to the processor.
Re: July 2024 Update on Instability Reports on Intel Core 13th/14th Gen Desktop CPUs
#178Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I find it hard to believe that it actually is a microcode issue. They learned a lot from the Pentium disaster, even if it's a hardware issue, they can address it with microcode at least, which is just as good.
Except normally the result of a microcode workaround is that the chip no longer performs at its claimed/previously-measured level. Not "as good" by any standard. For example, Intel CPU + Spectre mitigation is not "as good" as a CPU that didn't have the vulnerability in the first place.
At least with spectre applying the mitigation was a choice. You could turn it off and game at full speed, while turning it on for servers and web browsing for safety.
This is busted or working.
Re: July 2024 Update on Instability Reports on Intel Core 13th/14th Gen Desktop CPUs
#179I find it hard to believe that it actually is a microcode issue. Mostly because Intel has way too much motivation to pass it off as a microcode issue, as they can fix a microcode issue for free, by pushing out a patch. If it's an actual hardware issue, then Intel will be forced to actually recall all the faulty CPUs, which could cost them billions. The other reason, is that it took them way too long to give details.…
It's most likely both a hardware issue and a microcode issue. Making CPUs is kind-of like sorting eggs. When they're made, they all have slightly different characteristics and get placed into bins (IE, "binned") based on how they meet the specs. To oversimplify, the cough "better" chips are sold at higher prices because they can run at higher clock speeds and/or handle higher voltages. If there's a spec of dust on th…
> If there's a spec of dust on the die, a feature gets turned off and the chip is sold for a lower price.
Do you mean that if a 13900KS CPU has a manufacturing defect, it gets downgraded and sold as 13900F or something else according to the nature of the defect?
Re: July 2024 Update on Instability Reports on Intel Core 13th/14th Gen Desktop CPUs
#180https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/mickens/files/theslowwinte... "Unfortunately for John, the branches made a pact with Satan and quantum mechanics [...] In exchange for their last remaining bits of entropy, the branches cast evil spells on future genera- tions of processors. Those evil spells had names like “scaling- induced voltage leaks” and “increasing levels of waste heat” [...] the branches, those vanquished foe…
I haven't read this piece before but I just knew it was going to be written by Mickens about halfway through your comment.
The "mickens" in the URL on the first line was a dead giveaway :-)