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Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

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Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#171

Post by robertlagrant »

oersted wrote: post #161
robertlagrant wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain why that matters? Yes a company can have a bank account. A company also has a name, like a person. An age, like a person. But what does that matter?

Certain laws apply to any person, which includes companies. A company can own things like you own things, and has similar protections. A company is accountable to its promises (contracts, fraud...), like you would be, although punishments might be different. It's like a union type: `type Person = Human | Company`. Or like inheritance: `class Human(Person)`, `class Company(Person)`. Or a typeclass/trait/interface... I…

Sorry, again I don't understand why this matters.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#172

Post by robertlagrant »

BiteCode_dev wrote: post #168
robertlagrant wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain why that matters? Yes a company can have a bank account. A company also has a name, like a person. An age, like a person. But what does that matter?

We moved the power from the human to something we said is "human enough" to have them. But this thing is a concept, it doesn't exist. It can't die. It can change forms until it doesn't pay taxes. It can't experience pain or go to prison. Basically, we gave the power to the company without the responsibilities to the humans behind it because there is less consequences, less skin in the game.

Sorry - we moved what power?

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#173

Post by janice1999 »

justinclift wrote: post #31

Seems an extremely soft ball approach: • Under the deal, Boeing agreed to pay a $243.6 million fine and for an third-party monitor to be installed to monitor the company’s compliance. ~$240M seems pretty low for an industry where billions are commonly thrown about. • The deal spares Boeing from a trial just as the planemaker is trying to turn a corner in its safety and manufacturing crises. Sparing them from a trial…

It's even softer when you dig into the details.

> third-party monitor

For just three years. Lawyers for the victims said yesterday Boeing would select the monitor the DOJ would appoint. I hope this is no longer the case but can't find confirmation. If so, it's insane. Self-certification was a major source of corruption and rot in Boring.

https://www.newsweek.com/boeing-pleads-guilty-fraud-sweethea...

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#174

Post by soco »

roenxi wrote: post #143
constantcrying wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can not punish someone for a crime they didn't commit and had no knowledge of. That is ridiculous and a perversion of justice.

And the level of risk the CEO/C Suite would have to take on would be insane. Who would want to be in charge of an aerospace company if there was a real risk that you'd get charged with murder if you don't have an almost psychic insight into the technical decisions of your company? There'd be a filtering effect where the best and brightest avoid industries where we need them to be. That standard would likely reduce th…

If what Boeing management has to offer means "quality" then I'll gladly take less of it, thank you. Same with VW and all those managers which went away unscathed enjoying their golden parachutes, for basically leading schemes for killing people.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#175

Post by razakel »

justinclift wrote: post #30
KingOfCoders wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The convicted felon in the White House next year will make sure his fellow felons get what they want.

If such a convicted felon were to pardon themselves, would they be a convicted felon any more?

Yes. Pardons are clemency - they don't overturn the conviction, it just means the person doesn't receive any punishment.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#176

Post by razakel »

chakintosh wrote: post #137
BartjeD wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For spilling a hot coffee cup you get $ 2.7 million worth of punitive damages. But for killing more than 200 people and trying to hide the evidence, we'll charge you 200 million and call it a day. That's less per person than the price of a hot-coffee spill.

> For spilling a hot coffee cup you get $ 2.7 million worth of punitive damages. What's the context here?

A woman spilled McDonald's coffee on herself, fusing her labia together and receiving third-degree burns. She needed skin grafts.

McDonald's knew that their coffee was dangerously hot and had been repeatedly warned about it, so the jury awarded punitive damages.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#177

Post by glimshe »

constantcrying wrote: post #75
davedx wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem is that finding the people responsible can be extremely hard > What Boeing really needs is a complete change in management culture Who is ultimately responsible for management at a company though? The CEO and the other C-level people. This isn't really the daunting difficult problem you make it out to be: the buck stops at the C-suite. Who else could possibly be ultimately responsible??

You can not punish someone for a crime they didn't commit and had no knowledge of. That is ridiculous and a perversion of justice.

Part of the reason the C suite makes outrageous salaries is that they have much more responsibility than the rest of us. They didn't have the intention to harm people but it's nonetheless their fault if they didn't put in place proper and reasonable procedures to prevent the problems.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#178

Post by BiteCode_dev »

robertlagrant wrote: post #172
BiteCode_dev wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We moved the power from the human to something we said is "human enough" to have them. But this thing is a concept, it doesn't exist. It can't die. It can change forms until it doesn't pay taxes. It can't experience pain or go to prison. Basically, we gave the power to the company without the responsibilities to the humans behind it because there is less consequences, less skin in the game.

Sorry - we moved what power?

The power of having a bank account, of moving funds around, of signing contracts, etc.

Before that, companies had to have everything attached to a human, not the company. So the human was responsible.

You are so used to it that you think it's normal, but it's not.

It's a concept we have created: that companies can act in their own name, like they are actually something concrete.

But when we did that, we failed to give companies expiration date, something like inheritance tax, the equivalent of prison and so forth.

Something that doesn't exist, a concept, enjoy many things a concrete human can do, but won't pay nearly the same consequences.

In fact, it's sometimes in the title: limited liability company. It's by design.

And of course, it allowed humans to do a lot of things without risking to lose all their life if they failed. But we went to far and now, we have companies that can enjoy all those benefits but with much less limitations than the humans counterpart.

It makes them too powerful.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#179

Post by archerx »

Arnt wrote: post #167
archerx wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Make the CEO responsible, want those big rewards (high ceo pay) get ready to deal with big responsibility. I’m sure if CEOs were criminally liable things would change very quickly.

So the CEO says in court: «I am now aware that some of the issues on your jira backlog caused damage to our customers. The very-well-compensated programming team leader and the highly paid programmers reported to me that there were no such issues in the backlog, and based on their written assessment I decided to release the new version. It would be impossible for me to check every detail, and therefore unreasonable f…

Nice strawman. The prosecution reminds the jury that the CEO got paid 33 million before bonuses and the programmers only got 150k.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#180

Post by orbital-decay »

constantcrying wrote: post #97
squigz wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me the real perversion of justice is executives constantly avoiding consequences for their actions

It is not illegal to be a bad CEO. CEOs, surprisingly are protected by the law as well.

It is illegal to be a bad engineer or a doctor, in certain cases. Why not CEO?
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