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How to get stuff repaired when the manufacturer don't wanna: take 'em to court

blog.simonrumble.com

171–180 of 324 posts

Re: How to get stuff repaired when the manufacturer don't wanna: take 'em to court

#171

> Now an old fashioned light bulb shouldn't be expected to last a decade, but an oven? Funnily enough, there actually was the Phoebus cartel [1] which sought to reduce the lifespan of incandescent light bulbs to around 1,000 hours and raise prices. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebus_cartel

There's also the Centennial Light [1], a light bulb made in the late 1890s. It was first lit in 1901 and it's still alight today. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centennial_Light

The centennial bulb is less a lightbulb than it is a toaster oven. Planned obsolescence is real, but the centennial bulb is not evidence of it.

Re: How to get stuff repaired when the manufacturer don't wanna: take 'em to court

#173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A not often discussed problem with the EU guarantee is that in the first 6 months, every defect is presumed to have been present at the time it was bought. After 6 months it is on the consumer to prove it, and for most things it is just not worth it to pay for an expert opinion. So in practice the iron clad guarantee is only 6 months for most consumer products. At least that's the interpretation of the law in the UK.…

The term at which burden of proof shifts from the retailer to the consumer has been raised to 1 year in the EU (maybe not in the UK due to Brexit). As this is a matter of civil law, the standard of proof is also "more likely than not" proof, not "beyond reasonable doubt". You don't necessarily need an expert opinion, it _can_ be sufficient to collect a bunch of reports of similar failures.

> The term at which burden of proof shifts from the retailer to the consumer has been raised to 1 year in the EU

This is great to know. Unfortunately yes, UK won't pick it up automatically.

And yes, in practice you need enough proof to convince a small claim judge, which might not be a lot, especially if the defect is well documented.

Re: How to get stuff repaired when the manufacturer don't wanna: take 'em to court

#174
post #98

Regardless, you should still never ever buy an HP printer. Tell your friends and family.

I mean, a LaserJet 4L is still quite a decent printer today. Just don't buy an HP printer that was made in the last 25 years, and you should be fine!

You're being hard on poor old HP. My HP LaserJet 1200 is still going strong, and it was bought only 20 years ago!

Re: How to get stuff repaired when the manufacturer don't wanna: take 'em to court

#175
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm often guilty of missing mistakes in my own posts, but as a PSA: please proofread your posts, especially if using prediction on a phone. You can edit your post if you do so soon after posting, and sometimes the meaning isn't lost (stale matches -> stalemates) but other times it (subjectively) is. For example I don't know what "rightful" should be here.

I always thought it would be a good idea to have a suggest spelling improvements on social media & forums. Gives a low-key way of improving things without wasting comment space and potentially saving embarrassment. But I’m sure it needs a good ux or otherwise will be abused

I agree. Stack overflow has/had something like this where users with at least N karma could make edits to others' posts. I believe that was done with an aim like what you've described, though of course it is also subject to some abuse.

Re: How to get stuff repaired when the manufacturer don't wanna: take 'em to court

#176
post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a shame that this is needed to be said but in many laws it is true. Employment, consumer, health, and prisoner come to mind.

The definition of "developed country" doesn't really track those metrics, though. It's more about economy, level of technology and general infrastructure commonly available, etc.

> and general infrastructure commonly available

Banking being stuck in the 19th century but with apps, healthcare being generally unaffordable, a near total lack of affordable transit options, etc etc etc

Re: How to get stuff repaired when the manufacturer don't wanna: take 'em to court

#177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A not often discussed problem with the EU guarantee is that in the first 6 months, every defect is presumed to have been present at the time it was bought. After 6 months it is on the consumer to prove it, and for most things it is just not worth it to pay for an expert opinion. So in practice the iron clad guarantee is only 6 months for most consumer products. At least that's the interpretation of the law in the UK.…

> A not often discussed problem with the EU guarantee is that in the first 6 months, every defect is presumed to have been present at the time it was bought. After 6 months it is on the consumer to prove it, and for most things it is just not worth it to pay for an expert opinion. I don’t think the EU says anything that specific ( https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/dealing-with-customers... ) > At least that's the…

That's just the summary. If you follow the link to "EU Directive on the sale of consumer goods and associated guarantees" [1], Article 5.3 states:

"3. Unless proved otherwise, any lack of conformity which becomes apparent within six months of delivery of the goods shall be presumed to have existed at the time of delivery unless this presumption is incompatible with the nature of the goods or the nature of the lack of conformity."

A sibling comment states that this might have increased to one year though.

[1] https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex:31...

Re: How to get stuff repaired when the manufacturer don't wanna: take 'em to court

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does your country not have small claims court?

It does, but there’s a get-out - meta just say that they don’t operate in Portugal, even though they do sell to Portugal, and therefore there’s nobody to claim against. I’d have to go to a higher court, and again, the calculus here is that it’s not worth the consumer’s time - I don’t want to spend years and thousands of euro fighting over it - so the quest just went in the trash, and I’ll never buy anything from them…

The European Small Claims Procedure[1] might be helpful.

[1] https://e-justice.europa.eu/content_small_claims-42-en.do

Re: How to get stuff repaired when the manufacturer don't wanna: take 'em to court

#179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US, the UE and China have wildly different approaches to many important topics, and the fact they are all affecting the entire world has the tendency to break political stale matches and balance things out. It shows that diversity is a good thing, you end up having to compromise no matter how rightful you feel.

The problem is people keep trying to stamp the diversity out. The model in the US is nominally to have few regulations limited to things like enforcing contracts and antitrust laws and pricing major externalities, then leave the rest of it to free market competition. That isn't compatible with a model where regulators are trying to run the economy, because then the regulators get captured by industry and thwart rathe…

Doesn't the US allow "diversity" by allowing different states to pass laws that their residence find important? I'm pretty sure CA has some specific right to repair laws.

Also, this (to me) is a strange use for the word diversity.

Re: How to get stuff repaired when the manufacturer don't wanna: take 'em to court

#180
I mean, litigation is fine and all, but what you can do will vary by jurisdiction.

In the past 14 months I've had to deal with two misbehaving insurance companies, one misbehaving utility provider (overcharging), and a few other things as well that I don't really want to talk about here.

I did not get to the point of actually having to take legal action but I did have to threaten it in two cases, along with action from the relevant ombudsmen.

Nothing like this, or on this scale, has ever happened to me before (once, about thirty years ago, I had to threaten a company with small claims for unpaid wages, but that's it).

There are, to an extent, processes you have to follow before you can get to the point where you are within your rights to threaten to throw the legal book at companies. You usually have to have gone through their complaints procedures and got to what you consider an unsatisfactory result. This in itself can take weeks or months of emailing back and forth, phone calls, etc. You gradually escalate your approach, you cover the internet in bad reviews, you contact your local MP and the local media, and so it goes on.

Its an exhausting and kafkaesque shitshow and this is with the backing of authorities, such as ombudsmen, who operate with the backing of legislation.

I understand why you have to do it: because some consumers are vexatious and dishonest. But it takes too long (elapsed) and it takes far too much time (effort) that could be better spent with family and friends (as an example).

I am currently gearing myself up to deal with the other insurance company, who I haven't so far had to threaten with legal action, and file a police complaint due to some new information that's come to light that shows our insurers, and the advice they gave us, in a very bad light.

Honestly, I don't know if I can be bothered any more. Taking the actions that I have, well, I wouldn't say they've left us better off, but they've left us much less worse off, because we haven't been taken for mugs... but the cost to my sanity and my soul. I don't know if the juice has always been worth the squeeze.

And that, of course, is what these companies bank on: that you'll get tired of it all and stop bothering them. It's extremely scummy behaviour, and frustrates me that I have to get to the point of threatening them with legal action just to get them to do the right thing. I strongly resent being forced to act like an asshole just to get a fair outcome.

I welcome any legislation that helps consumers get to a fair outcome more easily, but I also suggest that we need to look at the question of the obfuscatory tactics companies use to force consumers to jump through ridiculous hoops first.

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