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Are animals conscious? New research

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Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#171

Post by carlosjobim »

deanCommie wrote: post #78
lolinder wrote: post #66

> Attributing consciousness to animals based on their responses was seen as a cardinal sin. The argument went that projecting human traits, feelings, and behaviours onto animals had no scientific basis and there was no way of testing what goes on in animals’ minds. What's always been funny to me about the scientific approach to animal consciousness/emotions/empathy is that in a perfectly rational world the default as…

The challenge is that part of an advanced human society is creating black-and-white lines in structures to promote peace and prosperity. For example, everything we associate with the magical age of 18 years old. "Adulthood", sexual consent, voting, drinking, smoking, conscription all begin on an arbitrary day and we take no consideration of the reality of the maturity of the person. (Not to mention that "maturity" is…

> Not to mention that "maturity" is entirely cultural and contextual.

I cannot agree with this. Maturity has a very clear meaning: it is when a human (or animal) has developed enough to be able to sexually reproduce. That people use the word wrongly in everyday conversation is something else.

As for what you write about mammals, I completely agree. Just looking at them and interacting with them in real life and it's clear that they're our brothers.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#173

Post by squigz »

slowmovintarget wrote: post #137
lolinder wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I reject panpsychism as going against common sense; I think there probably are very simple (read: small) animals that aren't conscious. Yes, I can definitely agree with this. I'm more reacting to the idea that it's somehow an unresolved scientific question whether dogs and cats and other mammals have emotions. There isn't a sufficiently large difference in neurology between humans and other mammals for me to believ…

Dogs definitely have Theory of Mind. There was a study done that placed a treat in a room where the dog was instructed not to eat it. A handler was in the room with the dog. When the lights were turned out, the dogs would eat the treat, because they knew that the human couldn't see in the dark.

Wouldn't another explanation be that the dog thought the human literally didn't exist?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object_permanence

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#174

Post by [deleted] »

squigz wrote: post #173
slowmovintarget wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dogs definitely have Theory of Mind. There was a study done that placed a treat in a room where the dog was instructed not to eat it. A handler was in the room with the dog. When the lights were turned out, the dogs would eat the treat, because they knew that the human couldn't see in the dark.

Wouldn't another explanation be that the dog thought the human literally didn't exist? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object_permanence

[deleted]

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#176

Post by p_j_w »

cupcakecommons wrote: post #159
timeon wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Easy example. As currently drunk person, I admit that my senses are impaired. But doubting my consciousness makes me doubt yours. Yes there can be scale of drunkness so is different scale of thinking. Idea that one mammal has unrelated thinking/sensing from other mammals does not makes sense.

I'm talking about being extremely drunk. I have a friend that "woke up" walking in a park after a night of drinking. If he was already walking exactly who woke up? My friend the human-animal was walking already. My friend the human-consciousness woke up. It was his consciousness coming back online as the ethanol was metabolized in the parts of his brain that afforded his consciousness.

Did your friend actually wake up or did they start forming memories again?

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#177

Post by slowmovintarget »

squigz wrote: post #173
slowmovintarget wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dogs definitely have Theory of Mind. There was a study done that placed a treat in a room where the dog was instructed not to eat it. A handler was in the room with the dog. When the lights were turned out, the dogs would eat the treat, because they knew that the human couldn't see in the dark.

Wouldn't another explanation be that the dog thought the human literally didn't exist? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object_permanence

No, because the dog could smell and hear the human, just like they could smell the treat.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#178

Post by BatFastard »

timeon wrote: post #149
slibhb wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The only reason why animal consciousness has been controversial historically is a religious one—the Bible has typically been read as placing humanity in a category of its own. And yet we see countless secular scientists clinging to that perspective when even a cursory glance at the evidence and a basic application of Occam's razor would suggest the opposite. It's not just the Bible. It's virtually every religion an…

> Animals didn't land on the moon Isn't this conspiracy theory? One species of mammals actually did.

But animals(dogs) were first to go into orbit!

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#179

Post by lolinder »

squigz wrote: post #173
slowmovintarget wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dogs definitely have Theory of Mind. There was a study done that placed a treat in a room where the dog was instructed not to eat it. A handler was in the room with the dog. When the lights were turned out, the dogs would eat the treat, because they knew that the human couldn't see in the dark.

Wouldn't another explanation be that the dog thought the human literally didn't exist? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object_permanence

Frankly, as a parent of three I'm not at all convinced that human infants lack object permanence, much less adult dogs. I've never observed anything in my infants that would indicate they lost track of something's existence, and I've seen plenty of things that suggest the opposite.

See also the section of that article entitled "Contradicting evidence".

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#180

Post by taneq »

kazinator wrote: post #165
brotchie wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consciousness and intelligence are orthogonal concepts. It's not the case that the more "intelligent" human is, the more "conscious" they are. Intelligence is the ability to abstractly reason and adapt to novel stimulus. Consciousness is the individual experience of the "interiority" of a world model constructed in the brain. Given we're all in the same evolutionary line, there nothing to make me believe that a Dog d…

> It's not the case that the more "intelligent" human is, the more "conscious" they are. Why not? > Consciousness is the individual experience of the "interiority" of a world model constructed in the brain. The more complex and detailed the model, the more conscious. Why not?

Because that’s not what consciousness means! Because it never means anything, because it’s never defined in any useful way.

‘What is it like to be like a HN thread?’ This is just pushing the missing definition into ‘to be’ .

(Metzinger’s transparent self-model description is the closest I’ve read to something actually useful.)

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