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WP21

ma.tt

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Re: WP21

#171

Post by photomatt »

modernerd wrote: post #94

21! At this point WP is “boring technology” which makes it a great choice for many sites. It still does much that's hard to get anywhere else: - The core update process. It's long been one-click. Almost no other CMS or self-hosted framework offers as smooth an update process. (With Laravel, for example, I end up paying for Laravel Shift and even then it requires manual intervention that would be hard for a non-dev to…

That's a good list, there's cool stuff coming with many of those! SQLite support will be official if it's not already thanks to the Playground work.

https://wordpress.org/playground/

Re: WP21

#172

Post by photomatt »

henning wrote: post #10

WordPress is proof that clean code doesn't matter. Security doesn't matter. Out of the box performance doesn't matter. At least none of these matter if you are the 800 lb gorilla in the market and everyone else is trying to take a piece out of you.

It's funny because a lot of our growth has come from being one of the early CMSes to be completely W3C / XHTML compliant out of the box, security improvements including our update system give us auto-update numbers better than Android (but not as good as Chrome or iOS), and client-side performance and SEO performance are a huge reason why people choose WP! Some things are in the eye of the beholder.

Re: WP21

#173

Post by chupchap »

dmje wrote: post #60
MangoCoffee wrote: post #30

WP is 21 years old, and people on HN still bishing and crying about it. How come no one has offered something that can beat WP in 21 years?

It’s HN. This is where WordPress comes to get bashed :-) Although - to be fair, I’m not seeing nearly as many anti-WP comments as you’d expect here - most people are being reasonably balanced with their criticisms. As a long time WP agency owner I agree with a fair number of the comments. My main beef now with the platform is that there are three fairly distinct types of WordPress in 2024. 1) “Classic” WordPress with…

> 3) “FSE” WordPress for quickly throwing up a one pager or simple brochureware site

You can have a full fledged site and blog using it. Not sure what you mean by this comment.

Re: WP21

#174

Post by rafark »

nikolay wrote: post #164
rafark wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So basically you just want the functionality without paying for it. > they overprice and they forget people use multiple plugins People who complain about the prices also forget that a lot of these plugins take months or years to develop. You’re (we’ll not you since you made it clear you don’t pay the devs) literally getting thousands of man hours for like 60 bucks per year.

I never said that - they need to price adequately. 99% of the plugins are just overpriced junk that's not worth even 1% of what they ask for it.

You said you’re buying from an unauthorized reseller because you don’t want to pay what they ask for. If you don’t agree with their prices that’s totally fine. But then why use their products? You want to use them but you don’t want to pay the developers.

Re: WP21

#175

Post by noduerme »

tomthe wrote: post #102
noduerme wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kill the freelancer? I'm a freelancer and my favorite thing to tell cheap potential clients for the past 15 years is do their site with Wordpress and to go find a Wordpress "expert". It exists for the broke and the cheap who are under the illusion that they need a simple website, which itself is a dead letter.

Why do you think they might be wrong when they want a simple website?

I'm not saying they're necessarily wrong... there are certain things where a website should just be dead simple. I built a site for my mechanic, in trade for work on my car. It's like three static pages. Just something to backstop a link on Yelp and Google Maps.

I said simple websites are a dead letter, because it's no longer the 1990s. There's no cachet in them. The web is littered with simple sites that don't rank and no one ever visits. Then the owners think 'maybe I should hire SEO' or 'add a blog' and the question is "wait you built me this site, why can't you just do that for $500"? And that's why I just refer clients like that to someone who does Wordpress now. I have no interest in learning the giant pile of PHP sludge that is WP for projects that barely pay. I hardly build websites at all anymore unless they're SPAs, and only if it's functionality that can't be done with off the shelf frameworks.

To the sibling who said I'm doing this to justify being a freelancer - quite the opposite. I'm telling potential clients of a cheaper way to get what they want, and turning away work that I know is a pointless headache.

Re: WP21

#176

Post by nikolay »

rafark wrote: post #174
nikolay wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never said that - they need to price adequately. 99% of the plugins are just overpriced junk that's not worth even 1% of what they ask for it.

You said you’re buying from an unauthorized reseller because you don’t want to pay what they ask for. If you don’t agree with their prices that’s totally fine. But then why use their products? You want to use them but you don’t want to pay the developers.

Unauthorized?! It's 100% legal! Maybe not 100% moral, but I needed this for a nonprofit. I donated GiveWP to this and 2 more nonprofits - it costs me $420 per year and it's worth it. But no plugin developer offers a nonprofit discount, and the pricing is just cost-prohibitive. So, I donated the lifetime plan for GPL Vault. Keep in mind, that I could've decided not to pay for GiveWP as it's available from GPL Vault, but because I know it's a complex piece of work... although extremely buggy, I wanted the developers to continue the development and fix those bugs at some point far in the future, but the other stuff is just nice-to-haves and not worth the asking price.

Re: WP21

#177

Post by JodieBenitez »

JeanMarcS wrote: post #109
ssalat wrote: post #25

Quick judgments and strong opinions have unfortunately become part of the community. Having spent the last 2-3 months working excessively on WordPress development, I would like to say a word about the excellent isolation of code with blocks ("Gutenberg"). As standalone plugins or in combination with Advanced Custom Fields, these allow for perfect, modular websites and development flows (design system), where even the…

WordPress is a great blogging CMS. The fact that people use it for something else is what create strong opinions. Example : woo commerce. Products ? In the WP_POST db. Orders ? In the WP_POST db. And in every post about WP it says that using WP_POST for storing your data is good practice. Well I don't think it is (but it's only my opinion. A strong one). And the problem is that a LOT of plugins and themes are like th…

Anyone remember the old Spip CMS ? People used to cram every possible content in the _ARTICLES_ loop. Same mistake.

Re: WP21

#178

Post by talldan »

askonomm wrote: post #145
Tijdreiziger wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their mantra of ‘never break backwards compatibility’ is a double-edged sword. It makes them extremely friendly to non-technical users, which I think is the majority of their userbase. However, it makes it impossible for them to change technical decisions made in the past.

That would be fine, imo. But seeing as their new development efforts (Block/Gutenberg themes) are also making horrible decisions when they no longer have to (such as putting templating markup inside of HTML comments as JSON)[1] E.g: I've lost any faith I had in their core development teams competence. I would understand if development choices made 20 years ago weren't all that great by todays standards, and never bre…

I think there's some confusion in your comments. The HTML comments aren't a templating language, there's no (or little) post processing when displaying this content.

They're annotations that indicate where a 'block' of content starts and ends.

The JSON data stores some values set by users for a block that can't easily be parsed from the HTML content.

The content is stored as HTML as most content a user creates is static HTML, so when displaying content much of the HTML is displayed verbatim (but without the HTML comments), and then there's only a little bit of progressive enhancement for dynamic content.

I think you're also conflating some terms, like 'themes' and 'blocks', these are two different things and launched years apart.

Re: WP21

#179

Post by zelphirkalt »

photomatt wrote: post #165
askonomm wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would be fine, imo. But seeing as their new development efforts (Block/Gutenberg themes) are also making horrible decisions when they no longer have to (such as putting templating markup inside of HTML comments as JSON)[1] E.g: I've lost any faith I had in their core development teams competence. I would understand if development choices made 20 years ago weren't all that great by todays standards, and never bre…

You've got some pretty compelling arguments for why WordPress shouldn't work, it's I think even more interesting to figure out why it has. Especially on a site like HN, which has "terrible" UI and code, it even still uses single-pixel spacers! :)

I have not looked at the code of HN. Is it public? And what parts of it are terrible?

I think single pixel spacers and such things are of a different quality than the design (code) flaws brought up about WP though. Their impact is different. One merely influnces the layout of things while the other for example influence how whole themes are structured and how many pitfalls WP developers set up for themselves by writing unmaintainable code.

Re: WP21

#180

Post by zelphirkalt »

talldan wrote: post #178
askonomm wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would be fine, imo. But seeing as their new development efforts (Block/Gutenberg themes) are also making horrible decisions when they no longer have to (such as putting templating markup inside of HTML comments as JSON)[1] E.g: I've lost any faith I had in their core development teams competence. I would understand if development choices made 20 years ago weren't all that great by todays standards, and never bre…

I think there's some confusion in your comments. The HTML comments aren't a templating language, there's no (or little) post processing when displaying this content. They're annotations that indicate where a 'block' of content starts and ends. The JSON data stores some values set by users for a block that can't easily be parsed from the HTML content. The content is stored as HTML as most content a user creates is sta…

Not the GP, but I still remember, when I was looking for where one could set an abbreviated version of a text (I don't remember, if it was a whole post's text or some description or what.). I must have searched for 30 minutes or so, until I gave up and searched in a search engine. Imagine my disbelieve, when I saw, that they use friggin HTML comments, to indicate where to make the text cutoff. In terms of storing data cleanly in the database, this is a bad design. Also sooo unintuitive. There is a field or button for everything, but suddenly I need to put HTML comments into text. What.
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