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ICJ orders Israel to stop military operation in Rafah

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Re: ICJ orders Israel to stop military operation in Rafah

#171

Post by dang »

candiodari wrote: post #168
runarberg wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t understand, are you implying that none of these events actually occurred, that those pictures of Israeli operatives wearing civilian clothing as they raid the hospital in Jenin are fake? That the Israeli army did no shoot indiscriminately at aid seekers near the Al-Nabulsi roundabout in Gaza? That the collective memory of the event is wrong, recordings and satellite photos of the event are just false? I know…

[flagged]

Since you've continued taking HN threads deeper into hellish flamewar, and breaking the site guidelines badly, despite our requests to stop, I've banned the account.

Regardless of which side you're on in a conflict, and regardless of how right you are or feel you are, you simply can't abuse this forum and break its rules this way.

If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. They're here: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to stop military operation in Rafah

#172

Post by dang »

runarberg wrote: post #170
candiodari wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I’m just gonna repeat what I said above: > These allegations of Hamas violations of international humanitarian laws—even if true—does not devalue the lives of Palestinians, nor does it give Israel an excuse for further violations. When I said that, I was referring to my parent’s allegations of Hamas’ use of human shields, hiding among civilian populations etc. But this also applies to your accusations of Hamas’ terro…

I don't think you were breaking the site guidelines as badly as the account I've just banned (at least, I haven't seen it if you were)—but you've been using HN primarily for political and ideological battle, and that's also a line at which we ban accounts. That needs to change if you want to keep posting here. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for.

See https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme... for past explanations of this point. As well as https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html of course.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to stop military operation in Rafah

#173

Post by weatherlite »

racional wrote: post #167
weatherlite wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How was the Nakba a genocide?

Per the modern definition of the term: Genocide is the intentional destruction of a people in whole or in part. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide

So indeed the Nakba was not a genocide

Re: ICJ orders Israel to stop military operation in Rafah

#174

Post by nolongerthere »

seo-speedwagon wrote: post #67
nolongerthere wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you speak hebrew? I don't see subtitles to that video, where do you get that?

Here’s a synopsis reported by the Times of Israel https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/ben-gvir-says-h...

The subtitled video doesn't say anything about ethnic cleansing, the minister says he would like to see those who were exiled from Gaza in 2005 returned and allow Jews to live there again. He makes no mention of displacing the current population.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to stop military operation in Rafah

#175

Post by arp242 »

nolongerthere wrote: post #174
seo-speedwagon wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here’s a synopsis reported by the Times of Israel https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/ben-gvir-says-h...

The subtitled video doesn't say anything about ethnic cleansing, the minister says he would like to see those who were exiled from Gaza in 2005 returned and allow Jews to live there again. He makes no mention of displacing the current population.

What? Literally in the first paragraph:

> Far-right National Security Minister Itamar Ben Gvir says he would be “very happy to live in Gaza” following the war, musing that a mass exodus of Palestinians could create room for a significant influx of Israeli settlers.

I don't know what else to call a "exodus of Palestinians" to "create room". This is pretty much the textbook definition of than ethnic cleansing. And "voluntary emigration"? Right. To where? And after 80 years of fighting over all of this it's suddenly going to be all that "voluntary". Yeah...

This is not some rando we can perhaps interpret in good faith; this is a man who for years had the portrait of terrorist Baruch Goldstein in his office and has repentantly praised him. This, combined with many other things he has said and done over the last 15 years or so means it's pretty clear what he's saying: getting rid of the Untermensch to make lebensraum for the Übermenschen.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to stop military operation in Rafah

#176

Post by arp242 »

weatherlite wrote: post #144
tsimionescu wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a somewhat complex question to answer, and one that can't truly be untangled from the broader history of the I/P conflict. But the base idea is this: you can't fight terrorism with bombs. Israel's stated goals in this war don't make sense: even if they could eliminate every single Hamas (military) operative, the kind of assault they are perpetrating is obviously going to give rise to a new wave of militants,…

> For an example of how this can work, you can look at how the UK dealt with the IRA Did the IRA kill around ten thousands of Brits in one day and kidnapped a few thousands (I'm adjusting to population size here) ? Did the IRA have the sworn objective to eliminate England? Did the IRA join forces with another terrorist organization and a superpower bent on destroying England to encircle England from all directions an…

The circumstances of the catholic population in Northern Ireland was also significantly less extreme and dire. So if you want compare the scale of it then you also need to take that in to account.

However, the more important issue is not to get distracted by these sort of things. We can tit-for-tat this endlessly and never get anywhere, and the only way to solve this is to move beyond that. That's what they did in NI.

If we strip away all the violence, forget who did what to who, and all of that, then the inescapable conclusion remains: the IRA was right to protest the treatment of Catholics. Even Ian Paisley later admitted as much. And similarly Hamas is ... right to protest the treatment of Palestinians. That does not mean I condone the violence, like the general rhetoric of Hamas, or anything else. It's just an acknowledgement that 1) at the core of an issue are genuine grievances, and 2) as long as these grievances exist there will always be a Hamas.

You don't need to like these facts to accept it exists. You also don't need to just shrug and do nothing about Hamas. But you DO need to actually solve the rot cause (while you're also fighting Hamas). And for decades Israel has not just flat-out refused to do almost anything, it generally has made things worse. The violence of Israel is not as spectacular as the violence of Hamas, but it absolutely exists.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to stop military operation in Rafah

#177

Post by racional »

nolongerthere wrote: post #174
seo-speedwagon wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here’s a synopsis reported by the Times of Israel https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/ben-gvir-says-h...

The subtitled video doesn't say anything about ethnic cleansing, the minister says he would like to see those who were exiled from Gaza in 2005 returned and allow Jews to live there again. He makes no mention of displacing the current population.

The subtitled video doesn't say anything about ethnic cleansing

But of course it does exactly that, via the intentionally deceptive euphemism "voluntary emigration".

Re: ICJ orders Israel to stop military operation in Rafah

#178

Post by ImPostingOnHN »

dlubarov wrote: post #169
ImPostingOnHN wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not treating law and ethics as interchangeable, simply pointing out that the global consensus is that Israel's behavior is wrong in both a legal sense and an ethical sense (and a moral sense, if you distinguish that from the former), and thus is unhelpful to peace. I understand Israel disagrees with this consensus. I understand you may disagree with this consensus. I accept that if global consensus hasn't already…

Okay that fair, but it's a rough consensus among political entities, each with their own flaws. Some are authoritarian, some don't share Western values, some represent countries with deeply ingrained antisemitism. It's not a consensus among impartial ethicists or something.

If ethical systems of all shapes and sizes sampled from around the world, all agree that actions are ethically questionable, shouldn't that give the actor even more pause than a small minority of them?

There's no evidence the opposition is driven by antisemitism. The large amount of jewish people who oppose the Israeli genocide of Palestinians should give a clue that judaism isn't the issue here. Russia is trying to do the same thing to Ukraine as Israel is trying to do with Palestine, and receiving equal condemnation worldwide. Only they exclaim "russophobia!" when criticized, rather than "antisemitism!"

Re: ICJ orders Israel to stop military operation in Rafah

#179

Post by racional »

weatherlite wrote: post #173
racional wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Per the modern definition of the term: Genocide is the intentional destruction of a people in whole or in part. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide

So indeed the Nakba was not a genocide

The Nakba is ongoing, and fulfills the definitions (a)-(d) in Article 2 of the 1948 Genocide Convention to the letter.

You can call it a "small" genocide if you want. But you won't get anywhere denying either the facts of what has been happening to the Palestinians, or their relation to genocidal acts as defined above.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to stop military operation in Rafah

#180

Post by weatherlite »

racional wrote: post #179
weatherlite wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So indeed the Nakba was not a genocide

The Nakba is ongoing, and fulfills the definitions (a)-(d) in Article 2 of the 1948 Genocide Convention to the letter. You can call it a "small" genocide if you want. But you won't get anywhere denying either the facts of what has been happening to the Palestinians, or their relation to genocidal acts as defined above.

Nope not a genocide...by any reasonable definition it was not.
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