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End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

theguardian.com

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Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#171

Post by troupo »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #48
delta_p_delta_x wrote: post #43

The only thing the Gulf states have going for them is oil money and a good hub location on the Europe–Southeast Asia airline routes. Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Riyadh, Bahrain, Qatar, they all remind me of that quote from King of the Hill—they are monuments to man's arrogance. Desert cities hitting 50+ °C air temperature at midday which means air conditioning everywhere; vapid luxury in the form of expensive garish cars, shop…

> Desert cities hitting 50+ °C air temperature at midday which means air conditioning everywhere Couldn't that element be self-sufficient on solar?

> Couldn't that element be self-sufficient on solar?

Night happens even in the desert. Plus what others said about wind. Here's video about a recent sandstorm: https://www.thenationalnews.com/uae/dust-storm-sweeps-across...

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#172

Post by atlasunshrugged »

satvikpendem wrote: post #74
Simon_ORourke wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> local chiefs who oppose stupid and unrealistic white elephant vanity projects are executed. Let's not gloss over the absolutely appalling respect many of these societies have for human dignity. Public executions and flogging, discrimination and imprisonment based solely on gender, absolutely zero regard for freedom of conscience when it comes to matters of religion. There's only so much you can get away with by say…

Not to mention literal modern day slavery where they bring in South Asians on the promise of better pay, then take away their passports and pay them pennies.

Increasingly seems like they're coming from East Africa too, although it appears it may be at the behest of the government in some cases.

https://africanarguments.org/2024/03/go-gulf-is-ethiopia-sac...

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#173

Post by zaphirplane »

fancyfredbot wrote: post #144
zaphirplane wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Clearly you dislike gulf countries. The points raised are a mixture of facts, fiction, jealousy and dislike. You want them to boil in desert heat with some environmental appeal, while many countries pump the air full of pollution from factories or massive ICE cars I haven’t heard of back alley executions over there I don’t feel hate towards someone spending their money on 2 cars or a holiday house or whatever luxury…

I'm guessing people's distastefor gulf states can be explained largely by their ranking in the global slavery index [1] (three gulf states in the top ten) the global freedom index [2] (Saudi Arabia in bottom ten) and the global corruption index (gulf states are not as good at corruption as slavery or repression but they still give it a good shot). This seems more likely to me as an explanation than hating on people w…

Most of earth’s 8 billion people are unaware of (1) and shouldnt paint a whole region, I see only 2-3 gulf countries in the top 10 of (2) which painting the whole region for is convoluted reasoning. Not vested enough to decode 3 to see how it relates to hating a region.

In summary, there maybe reasons for an informed person to have an issue with a specific government, there is no reasonable reason to hate on countries because the are adjacent to a government you dislike and lastly the individuals in a country are free to live in reasonable temperatures with their own taste in buildings

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#174

Post by zaphirplane »

int_19h wrote: post #168
zaphirplane wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Straw man argument. I was refuting the back alley execution if that’s what you are getting at

You're technically correct in that the executions there are generally proudly done openly and often in public, and that backalley assassination of Khashoggi happened outside of the country.

There are reasons for someone to hate an ethnic group I can’t help you figure out yours.

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#175

Post by olabyne »

lvl102 wrote: post #107
delta_p_delta_x wrote: post #43

The only thing the Gulf states have going for them is oil money and a good hub location on the Europe–Southeast Asia airline routes. Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Riyadh, Bahrain, Qatar, they all remind me of that quote from King of the Hill—they are monuments to man's arrogance. Desert cities hitting 50+ °C air temperature at midday which means air conditioning everywhere; vapid luxury in the form of expensive garish cars, shop…

For decades, they wanted to diversify away from oil and build tech industries. The problem is they don’t have skilled labor and would have to import “slaves” as they do with everything. They have some of the lowest skilled and laziest labor in the world. If/when dependence on oil ends, these countries will go back to being poor. Edit: contrast ME with Mexico who is running out of oil. Yet, they are able to build beca…

some colleagues worked in tech companies in middle east oil countries and they confirm what you say. The local employees would show up for just 2h 3h a day, fake some working tasks, and leave.

They is so much money poured down on them that they don't understand the concept of work, to them it is just a hobby.

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#176

Post by alephnerd »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #88
mamonster wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if oligarchy is the correct word, its more like a union of 7 mini-monarchies. UAE is doing so well for (mainly) 2 reasons: 1) The Shakhbut coup in Abu Dhabi 2) Abu Dhabi and Dubai buried the hatchet to form UAE(there was a lot of bad blood between the 2 states, but because Rashid bin Saeed and Zayed bin Sultan were way above average as far as authoritarians go they managed to avoid stupid conflicts and f…

> I don't know if oligarchy is the correct word, its more like a union of 7 mini-monarchies Fair enough. And as you describe, it's more a diarchy of Dubai and Abu Dhabi. Nevertheless, structurally different from the absolute monarchies around them.

It's basically just Abu Dhabi now, because they bailed out Dubai's housing sector on multiple occasion - in 2009 [0], 2019 [1], 2020 [2], and (down the grapevine) I've heard they might be providing an additional bailout to Dubai soon.

Furthermore, Saudi has started requiring companies that are operating in Saudi to operate a Saudi office, and won't give tenders to those who are managing the relationship remotely from Dubai now, so companies have started moving staff to Riyadh.

> Nevertheless, structurally different from the absolute monarchies around them

MbS is trying to remake KSA into an Abu Dhabi 2.0, as MbZ was his mentor

[0] - https://www.cnn.com/2009/BUSINESS/12/14/dubai.10.billion.bai...

[1] - https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN1PU1LI/

[2] - https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN22R23G/

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#177

Post by pas »

satvikpendem wrote: post #74
Simon_ORourke wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> local chiefs who oppose stupid and unrealistic white elephant vanity projects are executed. Let's not gloss over the absolutely appalling respect many of these societies have for human dignity. Public executions and flogging, discrimination and imprisonment based solely on gender, absolutely zero regard for freedom of conscience when it comes to matters of religion. There's only so much you can get away with by say…

Not to mention literal modern day slavery where they bring in South Asians on the promise of better pay, then take away their passports and pay them pennies.

How Qatar built the stadiums for the World Cup? Well, like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMqLDhl8PXw

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#178

Post by namaria »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #98
namaria wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is plenty of Historical precedent for a regency in monarchies. It's not necessarily a departure from the constitution, and in fact I cannot think of an enduring monarchic regime that has not had regency periods, that is, periods when someone rules in the stead of a nominal sovereign.

> plenty of Historical precedent for a regency in monarchies MBS isn't acting as a regent, though. Salman remains the formal head of state. Dragonwriter made a compelling point, however, in Salman having formally delegated a lot of powers to MBS. So maybe MBS isn't a tyrant, though it's difficult to argue either Salman or MBS are absolute monarchs at this time in practice. (Their "crown" retains absolute power. But t…

So MBS is a prince with governing authority in an absolute monarchy. The position is grooming for he is the heir apparent. It would appear that what he decides - such as building a desert boondoggle to transfer cash to supporters - is not signed off by anyone. He makes it so by fiat. Semantic excursions are interesting but seem to have carried us in a wide circle around the point that started this thread.

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#179

Post by josefx »

onethought wrote: post #72
evrimoztamur wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Solar in desert has a lot of issues including wind and sand coverage. Although the deserts of the region may seem like unchanging environments, the ecosystem and weather is hostile to solar installations (amongst other things). Moreover, solar panels become less efficient at higher sustained temperatures, which increases land and infrastructure maintenance costs. https://eepower.com/industry-articles/is-desert-based-…

Some kind of cool idea that desalinates/heats water and cools solar panels at the same time. The sand bit feels like a filter problem.

Why cool PV panels when you can build a solar thermal plant instead.

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#180

Post by dindobre »

keiferski wrote: post #120
lvl102 wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For decades, they wanted to diversify away from oil and build tech industries. The problem is they don’t have skilled labor and would have to import “slaves” as they do with everything. They have some of the lowest skilled and laziest labor in the world. If/when dependence on oil ends, these countries will go back to being poor. Edit: contrast ME with Mexico who is running out of oil. Yet, they are able to build beca…

UAE is well on its way to being the Switzerland of the Middle East and Indian Ocean. Your rhetoric sounds like it’s from 2003.

Will the world's criminals start storing their money there or did you mean something else with Switzerland of the Middle East?
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