Wow. Jeff's article was not nearly as silly or inflammatory as some of these responses. Zed's rants can be great fun and quite theatrical, but Jeff was not trying to stifle anyone and prevent from learning to program. He was critiquing the fact that coding is becoming an "end unto itself" rather than one means (among many) for solving problems. Just because one learns to code does not mean one will solve problems - they may create more. Conversely, someone can never learn to code and be amazingly effective solving problems through other means. I am a programmer and really enjoy programming and appreciate its effect on the modern world - but it is not an end unto itself.
Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer
171–180 of 225 posts
Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer
#172Why does everyone pay so much attention to what people like Jeff Atwood and Joel Spolsky have to say? Looking at Jeff's resume, he has had all of two jobs in his professional life, one of which was given to him by himself. Joel's resume is similar, a few low profile jobs (MS was not notable back then) then one given to himself. From experience in the industry, it's pretty clear that programmers who stay in one spot f…
Wow - on Hacker News, you're going to dismiss people who start up and bootstrap successful technology companies as just "giving themselves a job"? On Hacker News . I mean, Mark Zuckerberg's only ever had one job, which he gave to himself. So we can pretty much ignore anything he has to say, too. How many jobs has Paul Graham had? Two, maybe? How many of them were "given to him by himself"? I think... two?
I didn't call them bad enterpreneurs, in fact, I think it's the contrary. But a programmer who's only had two jobs probably hasn't seen very much of what's out there. For the record, I would ignore what Zuckerberg has to say on programming related subjects. I would, however, take any advice he has on how to run a business. Paul Graham has made huge contributions to the software world including several books, and a language. Neither Jeff, Mark or Joel can say that they've even come close to that.
In short, I was talking purely about the programming aspect of these peoples' skill sets, not their enterpreneurial prowess.
Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer
#173The part at the end was just fantastic, and really sound advice for pretty much anyone. But, I think people are sort of misunderstanding Jeff's post. I didn't get the impression that he was trying to dissuade kids from learning how to code in some kind of effort to keep his uniqueness as a programmer. I think the point was just that this whole _everybody_ should learn how to code thing is a little odd. If you want to…
I'm sure learning a second language is fun, but I get annoyed when people try and make it seem like it's absolutely vital to do so. I'm guessing you're a native English speaker? Because I can tell you that in many parts of the world, learning a second language is essential if you want a decent job and access to the vast amounts of knowledge, culture and people that the Internet provides.
I suppose I didn't consider that -- yes, I am a native English speaker.
Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer
#174Why does everyone pay so much attention to what people like Jeff Atwood and Joel Spolsky have to say? Looking at Jeff's resume, he has had all of two jobs in his professional life, one of which was given to him by himself. Joel's resume is similar, a few low profile jobs (MS was not notable back then) then one given to himself. From experience in the industry, it's pretty clear that programmers who stay in one spot f…
>MS was not notable back then
Really? Then by your standard which tech companies were notable then? (he worked there during 1991-1993) BTW, Joel created VBA for Excel as a program manager around the time when Excel gained popularity over Lotus 1-2-3. There are graphs here: http://www.utdallas.edu/~liebowit/book/sheets/sheet.html. Figure 8.6 shows revenue share.
The other company that he had worked at (Juno) was something that I was also familiar with as a consumer.
To support your point, however, Joel's work experience was more on the product side than actual programming. However, ironically for this discussion, the VBA that Joel designed is the way that many noncoders in a business first start coding.
Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer
#175Thank goodness. While I don't think everyone should learn to code, I totally agree that we need to support those who want to learn.
Thank you Zed.
Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer
#176Great post. I have an awful lot of respect for Zed Shaw and what he's done (and, no, not for "Rails is a Ghetto" but for his directed learning programming books, which IMHO are probably the best approach for newcomers). I'm disappointed that Jeff has taken what is essentially an elitist and exclusionary view. Programming is not a zero sum game. Every new programmer isn't a threat to your livelihood and your existence…
This is a terrible post. He wildly exaggerates Jeff's statements and completely misses the point of it, which was not in any way "no one should learn to program", but rather "don't learn specialized skill sets you don't need". Jeff's point focused on whether programming was the best path to solving a problem for most people, and whether they would actually gain anything from it. His main argument was that programming…
"Please don't learn to code" is not a useful or kind thing to say. If he did not mean to say that, then he shouldn't have said it.
Technically most people can get by without literacy, general education, birth control or hand washing. But it's just offensively elitist to say that "most people" don't need things which enrich life and improve opportunities significantly, in aggregate.
How do you know who should be permitted to learn to program (or apply the calculus, or read)? Who are you to say what is a "more effective route"?
Nobody has said anything about doing a half-baked job. Nobody was born an expert, not even you. It's ridiculous to aim elitist bully talk like "half-baked job" at beginners when writing shit code is an unavoidable developmental stage every programmer goes through.
While we are discussing half-baked jobs, let's talk about a status quo where huge numbers of people are doing piles of mind numbing, annoying labor (and making mistakes) just because programming has not been applied. In many cases the funding and justification are not there to improve the process, in no small part because of a traditional culture which tends to programming as effete play or impossible wizardry or both. Do you really mean to suggest that there is NO value in automating or improving processes (or constructing things for yourself) unless you are working full time as a 'professional' developer? The technology is getting easier and easier for people without deep computer science background, so you are on the wrong side of history.
Programming is an incredibly valuable development of this century. It's as much part of the modern human heritage as banking or oral contraceptives. It should be applied in MANY more areas than it is applied.
This macho, elitist attitude is one of the biggest things which keeps a ton of women out of programming and related fields. Treating programming as some kind of venue for manhood comparison, and excluding people who do it for the love and the pursuit of knowledge, is detrimental to the art. It's a bad and unproductive attitude and it should stop yesterday.
Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer
#177This whole internet argument is a sad Fox News style ignorant pundit circus.
No one differentiates between learning how computers work and learning what programming is and learning the craft of software development. There is a huge difference between learning math and becoming a mathematician. They just bounce between both meanings of "learn to code" and assume whichever supports their point at that moment.
No one has mentioned that a lot of people probably can't realistically learn to code. There is actual research on this (start here: http://www.eis.mdx.ac.uk/research/PhDArea/saeed/). Before you debate something perhaps people should make a small attempt to be not completely ignorant of our current knowledge.
So Zed, I'm a fan, but when you say "I'm proud to say I am the proto-enabler of the meme that everyone can learn to code". You are saying you are proud of propagating bullshit, which doesn't seem like you. It's nice and new agey feel good and everything, but it probably doesn't reflect reality.
So Atwood waffles on the issue making no real point and then Zed attacks a strawman that only vaguely resembles what was actually said if you squint really hard.
Meanwhile no one talks about the actually interesting facts like that there are a lot of people who have serious trouble learning to think in algorithms. Of course there are a whole bunch of learn to code startups who probably left that out of their pitch decks because snake oil sells better so that's not a surprise. If all you read is tech sector marketing material you don't really have a good grasp of reality after a while.
And to those who are worried about an invasion of poorly educated and poorly trained anti-intellectual brogrammers? Firstly: I've only seen this argument from strawmen, not from anyone actually arguing it. Secondly: Well no shit. This is already happening. There is an incredible new technological tool, high rewards for skill with this tool and new methods of training people more quickly and efficiently than ever before. There will be more programmers out there. More programmers means worse programmers on average. This is what happens during booms. Combine that with the increased popularity of an anti-intellectual bent to attitudes about programming and it's awfully reminiscent of the patent medicine / snake oil boom when medicine was the hot new thing.
This has happened to a lot of industries and somehow things end up better at the end of it. I know everyone thought that the tech industry would be the lone historical exception because we're all so damn smart, but that was a stupid thing to think. There is going to be a massive explosion of incompetent (more incompetent?) programmers and a significant lowering in code quality for a few decades, we're only at the beginning of the shitstorm. When it's over we might actually have a mature industry and have learned how to manage software projects which would be nice.
Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer
#178Earlier quoted context omitted.
>I'm refuting his statement that other people should not become programmers, and that only a few chosen few should. But Atwood didn't say that. All he said was that it's a trade like Plumbing and not a life skill like being able to read. >The resentment comes from me talking to many programmers who say the same thing. But programmers DON'T mostly say that. In fact, I had a very animated discussion with Randy Stross o…
The title says "Please don't learn to code". The rest of the post is just more of that in different words. Wow, alright I'm just going to stop replying to people who can't even read the title, but still claim it's not saying what it says.
You realise that you're not supposed to reply at all to your own thread if you're trolling right?
Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer
#179Great post. I have an awful lot of respect for Zed Shaw and what he's done (and, no, not for "Rails is a Ghetto" but for his directed learning programming books, which IMHO are probably the best approach for newcomers). I'm disappointed that Jeff has taken what is essentially an elitist and exclusionary view. Programming is not a zero sum game. Every new programmer isn't a threat to your livelihood and your existence…
Programming is praised as a must-have life skill by... programmers. Comparison of programming with plumbing draws fierce condemnation as elitism. News at 11.
Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer
#180Earlier quoted context omitted.
The title was meant as an attention grabber, but the text does not suggest that NO ONE should learn to code. The text only disputes that EVERYONE should learn to code.
back up 200 years and replace coding with reading...
back up 200 years and replace plumbing with reading...
Your argument isn't evidence for anything at all. There's a big difference between reading and coding: reading is a very useful method of communication. Everyone should be literate just like everyone should be able to speak. Coding, on the other hand, is much more along the lines of plumbing than language.