While I don't agree that everyone should learn to code/program, I do think that everyone should learn discrete and critical thinking. Just the ability to break down a large problem (whatever domain it is in) into manageable chunks has helped me immensely throughout life.
Please don't learn to code
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Re: Please don't learn to code
#172This largely misses the point. I agree that it's not "essential" and not everyone should do it, but it's still more valuable than I think Attwood gives credit for. I'm perhaps in a unique position to comment, having recently taught my girlfriend to program. So I can talk about how that played out. My girlfriend understands menus, she knows about links, she can install software, she can use word, she can type away lik…
Well spoken, but not all people are like your girlfriend. To most people, learning a bit about programming would primarily be an exercise in frustration.
Really? I'm always sceptical when people use the phrase 'most people' to support their opinion, while presenting no other evidence to back up such an assertion. This seems to be a common rhetorical tactic in online discussions.
Those people who just generally don't like learning anything would likely be frustrated by learning about programming, but I've no idea if this amounts to most people or not.
Re: Please don't learn to code
#173I think most of you are taking the post too literally. He is going against the rising trend of post implying "EVERYONE SHOULD CODE, IT'S GREAT, YOU WOULD BE CRAZY NOT TO, ITS SO EASY". It almost sounds like an infomercial. Of course anyone who is interested should learn how to code. Anyone interested should learn a bit about plumbing. And about home wiring, and car repair, and...the list goes on. No matter what skill level you actually end up achieving if you are interested in coding go for it. But lets not pretend as if it is for everyone. And lets not pretend that a majority of the people would even be interested. Most people hate taking Math in school and they complain when they get older that they never use it. The same with a lot of other subjects in school as well.
Whats more important is that the computer stops becoming a black box for the average user. They should be taught the basics when it comes to how it works. It would not only help make it easier for the average person to use, it would help with security as well. If we teach basic programming skills to make that happen then I'm all for it. Coding is not the important part, understanding the machine is.
Re: Please don't learn to code
#174I was talking to a friend in HR and finance at a company. He has some processes they go through for placing bids with customers that are horrible and based on people copying and pasting lines from one word document into lines in another. That's the way their core business is done. Copy and pasting. Yes, it's inaccurate. Yes, the sales guys sometimes for get to update all the documents with copying and pasting causing large business problems. I have repeatedly tried to convince him: "Write an excel document with a few macros!" Their bottom line would profit from such a spreadsheet. He just doesn't have the minimal knowledge he needs to do it.
Best part: he works at a technology company, with a technical staff. That makes millions and millions of dollars a year.
I appreciate Jeff's sentiment, but he's missing the huge swath of people that could benefit from just a little (admittedly not great and half broken) programming knowledge.
Re: Please don't learn to code
#175I really, really disagree with Jeff Atwood here. Jeff has interpreted "learn to code" with "become a programmer". They're not the same thing. I don't think that is what this meme is about at all. Programming is logical thinking in practise. Programming is breaking a problem set down, thinking step by step through it, thinking of edge cases, and making it work. There is nothing wrong with Jeff's BASIC example, if that…
I don't understand the distinction you raise in the first paragraph. Coding is programming. Just because everyone can divide doesn't mean everyone is trying to be a mathematician, but I think everyone should (at least have the opportunity to) learn long division. Programming may not be the fourth "R", but maybe "Research" is!
I think the important distinction would be how much additional knowledge you need to solve the problems you solve. I'm gonna call the "coding" "scripting" for now, and the "programming" "programming", because these are older and in my opinion better terms.
Scripting basically takes the problem and a language and directly transforms the problem into a working program. You don't need fancy algorithms, you don't need fancy background knowledge in programming topics, you need python, a python dictionary and directory access (for example). Or Excel and VB and a few arrays and a formula.
On the other hand, heavier programming would require more and more thought when actually implementing a solution to a problem. Efficiency might become a large concern earlier, you might need more complicated algorithms sooner and so on. Think about every occasion where you transformed a problem into a graph problem and applied some graph search, or graph coloring to this problem.
If I understand "coding" as "scripting" and "programming beyond coding" as "programming", the distinction makes sense, and it makes sense to call for more people with the ability to script simple things, because scripting is not too hard and saves a lot of time.
Re: Please don't learn to code
#176i'm surprised that people are arguing with this kind of questions here, totally a waste of time, gosh.
Re: Please don't learn to code
#177Earlier quoted context omitted.
If you are right there are probably a hundred people on here able to provide a working MVP alongside you and do it faster, cleaner and pick up on solutions you cant possibly know yet. Be a domain expert. But learn to code anyway :-)
I'm sure anyone here could do that. But how many people here are looking for a non technical co-founder? Coders are solving their own problems, and until I can hack together a prototype I don't think I'll be able to draw any attention from real programmers.
"Coders are solving their own problems" , yes many are but that doesn't mean they wouldn't be better served financially by solving someone elses.
Re: Please don't learn to code
#178Most people shouldn't learn to program. However, this observation is a bit deceiving. I believe that everyone should learn to write scripts. I have seen way to many people waste time on a computer for tasks that should be clearly automated. Furthermore, these people usually have no idea that there is something better.
How much time would people save in aggregate if they knew a little bit about the tools they use? The average person shouldn't need to know about recursion, but why not a for-loop.
Re: Please don't learn to code
#179Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is a great example. My brother in law is a chef. I asked for his scone recipe, and he said to throw in some sugar, flour and milk (or something like that, I'm not a chef). Mix it until it looks right. That's expertise. I'm a lousy cook - but I can cook food if I follow instructions that have accurate measurements. That doesn't mean I shouldn't learn to cook.
You're not a lousy cook, you're just not used to the process. All it is is following instructions with precise measurements, and then doing it over and over again with different instruction sets until you start to recognize patterns and you find yourself having to look at the instructions less and less. That's 99% of cooking.
That is not what being a professional cook is about though. My girlfriend is a pastry chef and it takes more than being able to follow a recipe. Part of being a professional means knowing why certain ingredients taste the way they do when mixed with other ingredients. It means knowing how the altitude and temperature of where you are cooking can affect the taste of an ingredient. And there are a lot more little details that go into it as well.
For most people, they are just going to follow a recipe and you are right, that is all they need. But to be on a professional level and to be able to reproduce those flavors it takes a lot more than that. Check out the book "Professional Baking", it shows a lot of the complex nature that goes into being a pro.
Re: Please don't learn to code
#180i'm surprised that people are arguing with this kind of questions here, totally a waste of time, gosh.
I agree, this is typical of Atwood and it's baffling that people still pay attention.