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Apple announces ability to download apps directly from websites in EU

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Re: Apple announces ability to download apps directly from websites in EU

#171

Post by hu3 »

nerdjon wrote: post #157

It really bothers me that so much of this is focused on the developers, and that is the problem here. How many users actually want this? I am sure some, but I doubt it is a significant number. I have said this before here, but I am not looking forward to when this likely eventually comes to the US and as a user I have less control over my phone, not more. The walled garden is why I chose an iPhone and continue to sta…

I find it interesting that some pro-Wallet garden folks argument is:

"Don't like Apple? Don't buy it then."

Well I can use the same argument for apps.

"Don't like this third party app store or their dark patterns? Don't buy it then."

Vote with your wallet, goes both ways.

Or, hear me out, let's regulate so neither Apple nor other vendors can abuse their customers.

And it's not like Apple's protection is effective. AppStore is full of subscription scams.

Re: Apple announces ability to download apps directly from websites in EU

#172

Post by generalizations »

nerdjon wrote: post #157

It really bothers me that so much of this is focused on the developers, and that is the problem here. How many users actually want this? I am sure some, but I doubt it is a significant number. I have said this before here, but I am not looking forward to when this likely eventually comes to the US and as a user I have less control over my phone, not more. The walled garden is why I chose an iPhone and continue to sta…

I agree. People with some experience in marketing - not the scammy kind, but the stuff where you learn to identify what is valuable to paying customers - can probably see the problem here. Apple has intentionally curated a walled garden, and people like it in there. I run void linux machines at home because I customize everything - but my phone is an iPhone because my previous Androids are a morass of unsynchronized semi-crap apps.

Now the people outside the walled garden want in, and they're tearing down the walls to do it, and they seem to be completely clueless that by doing so they'll destroy the very thing that makes it so desirable.

Re: Apple announces ability to download apps directly from websites in EU

#173

Post by dotnet00 »

dangus wrote: post #150
CaptainMarvel wrote: post #110

My tolerance for Apple's walled garden expired with what they've pulled in reaction to the Digital Markets Act. It's become blatant (to me) they are landlords of their digital empire seeking to squeeze rent from everyone. I wouldn't mind paying for their expensive and yet still-profitable hardware if not for the antics they pull on the software side. Everyone should be able to run whatever legally-obtained program th…

I just wonder how products like game consoles would be viable under a law like this. I assume they would have to cost much more and there would be far less incentive for their development in the first place. Then again, we are at the end stages of game consoles. Microsoft in particular seems to be considering the idea of not even bothering with hardware. Software is where the money is, Chinese hardware companies can…

MS already allows you to unlock the ability to run custom code on their hardware for a ~$20 fee. Sony doesn't seem to do this yet, but on the other hand, they did eventually get the disk drive version of the PS5 to not sell at a loss.

So, I don't think it'd affect them too much. Alternative stores would mainly just end up being convenient for small indies and homebrew developers, neither of which would've been able to afford the fees to get onto the official stores anyway.

Re: Apple announces ability to download apps directly from websites in EU

#174

Post by bdw5204 »

nerdjon wrote: post #157

It really bothers me that so much of this is focused on the developers, and that is the problem here. How many users actually want this? I am sure some, but I doubt it is a significant number. I have said this before here, but I am not looking forward to when this likely eventually comes to the US and as a user I have less control over my phone, not more. The walled garden is why I chose an iPhone and continue to sta…

Apple's app store monopoly deprives users of the freedom to install apps that Apple disapproves of on their own devices. The benefit to users is that you can install apps that violate app store policies such as games about the US Civil War that feature the flag most commonly associated with the losing side of that war[0]. That's one of the more well known examples of Apple practicing censorship of their App Store.

The dark patterns such as making it extremely hard to cancel subscriptions or not reminding users that they're about to charge should be made illegal as deceptive billing practices.

[0]: https://techcrunch.com/2015/06/25/apple-bans-games-and-apps-...

Re: Apple announces ability to download apps directly from websites in EU

#175

Post by malermeister »

paulcole wrote: post #145
pbmonster wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They are deeply involved. If it’s that bad for developers, drop the iPhone and develop solely for Android. EU: "No."

Yes, that's called having differing opinions and it's not bad. If enough people in the EU agree with this, go for it. If Apple ends up saying that they're willing to abide by the letter of the law and no more, great.

Actually that's exactly the misunderstanding that's getting Apple in trouble. In European law, the letter of the law doesn't matter. The intent does.

It's called teleological interpretation, here's an EU document with a bit more background: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/BRIE/2017/5993...

Key quote:

> When interpreting EU law, the CJEU pays particular attention to the aim and purpose of EU law (teleological interpretation), rather than focusing exclusively on the wording of the provisions (linguistic interpretation). This is explained by numerous factors, in particular the open-ended and policy-oriented rules of the EU Treaties, as well as by EU legal multilingualism. Under the latter principle, all EU law is equally authentic in all language versions. Hence, the Court cannot rely on the wording of a single version, as a national court can, in order to give an interpretation of the legal provision under consideration. Therefore, in order to decode the meaning of a legal rule, the Court analyses it especially in the light of its purpose (teleological interpretation) as well as its context (systemic interpretation).

Facebook, too, tried rules-lawyering EU regulations only to be slapped with a huge fine. This shit doesn't fly here.

Re: Apple announces ability to download apps directly from websites in EU

#176

Post by generalizations »

hu3 wrote: post #171
nerdjon wrote: post #157

It really bothers me that so much of this is focused on the developers, and that is the problem here. How many users actually want this? I am sure some, but I doubt it is a significant number. I have said this before here, but I am not looking forward to when this likely eventually comes to the US and as a user I have less control over my phone, not more. The walled garden is why I chose an iPhone and continue to sta…

I find it interesting that some pro-Wallet garden folks argument is: "Don't like Apple? Don't buy it then." Well I can use the same argument for apps. "Don't like this third party app store or their dark patterns? Don't buy it then." Vote with your wallet, goes both ways. Or, hear me out, let's regulate so neither Apple nor other vendors can abuse their customers. And it's not like Apple's protection is effective. Ap…

> Vote with your wallet, goes both ways.

So just buy an android. Vote with your wallet! Show Apple their walled garden isn't what people want.

Re: Apple announces ability to download apps directly from websites in EU

#177

Post by acover »

peoplefromibiza wrote: post #167
nerdjon wrote: post #157

It really bothers me that so much of this is focused on the developers, and that is the problem here. How many users actually want this? I am sure some, but I doubt it is a significant number. I have said this before here, but I am not looking forward to when this likely eventually comes to the US and as a user I have less control over my phone, not more. The walled garden is why I chose an iPhone and continue to sta…

> The walled garden is why I chose an iPhone And that's fine The feature is not for you You can keep using your iPhone as you always did, through the Apple app store But, there's a but: how many users would answer "no" to "would you like to download our app and get a 30% discount for the same exact features"?

Are they forced to list on the apple app store?

Re: Apple announces ability to download apps directly from websites in EU

#178

Post by nerdjon »

afavour wrote: post #164
nerdjon wrote: post #157

It really bothers me that so much of this is focused on the developers, and that is the problem here. How many users actually want this? I am sure some, but I doubt it is a significant number. I have said this before here, but I am not looking forward to when this likely eventually comes to the US and as a user I have less control over my phone, not more. The walled garden is why I chose an iPhone and continue to sta…

> so much of this is focused on the developers, and that is the problem here. How many users actually want this? How many users actually understand the issues at stake, though? I don't say that to be patronizing but it's a nuanced, thorny problem. I bet if you simply asked "do you think it should be allowed to download porn apps?" a good number of users (if asked anonymously!) would say yes. How many users understand…

> How many users actually understand the issues at stake, though? I don't say that to be patronizing but it's a nuanced, thorny problem. I bet if you simply asked "do you think it should be allowed to download porn apps?" a good number of users (if asked anonymously!) would say yes. How many users understand why they can't subscribe to Netflix through the iOS app? How many know what Apple's cut even is?

The iPhone isn't a new platform though. I feel like people well understand what they can and cannot download through the App Store by this point.

While I do completely agree that Apple needs to loosen the control on things like porn apps, that is a different issue.

As far as Netflix, that is ultimately Netflix choice. They could allow you to subscribe through the App Store if they really wanted.

As far as Apple's cut. I mean I don't ask my grocery store what their cut is, or target, or any other store. I don't ask what Steam's cut is, or Xbox, or Playstation, even though all 3 of those are similar cuts. As a user, that number really doesn't mean anything to me.

> To my mind all of this comes back to the free market: you're free to ignore all this stuff and keep getting everything through the App Store. If you and many others do the same thing then the market will prove the idea to be a dud.

That is the problem, how free am I really to ignore it if the only way to get by budget app or whatever other app that I have come to rely on is suddenly a different store or they just don't want me to subscribe through the App Store anymore.

This isn't hypothetical, if I want to play Fortnite I will have to get the epic game store when that comes out. Is that really a choice for me? Instead of being able to choose if I want to play Fortnite or not, I instead am choosing if I care enough to download an alliterative store. Why is that ok? Instead Epic is making the choice for me, and it is up to me to decide if I care enough.

And then it becomes normalized and just accepted because most users who don't understand the risks of alternative stores, just go with it.

Re: Apple announces ability to download apps directly from websites in EU

#179

Post by generalizations »

afavour wrote: post #164
nerdjon wrote: post #157

It really bothers me that so much of this is focused on the developers, and that is the problem here. How many users actually want this? I am sure some, but I doubt it is a significant number. I have said this before here, but I am not looking forward to when this likely eventually comes to the US and as a user I have less control over my phone, not more. The walled garden is why I chose an iPhone and continue to sta…

> so much of this is focused on the developers, and that is the problem here. How many users actually want this? How many users actually understand the issues at stake, though? I don't say that to be patronizing but it's a nuanced, thorny problem. I bet if you simply asked "do you think it should be allowed to download porn apps?" a good number of users (if asked anonymously!) would say yes. How many users understand…

Except that the free market has already shown that users prefer the walled garden, because they keep buying iPhones. If you don't like the App Store limitation, then you're free to go buy an Android.

Re: Apple announces ability to download apps directly from websites in EU

#180

Post by pathartl »

fxtentacle wrote: post #12

"The Core Technology Fee (CTF) is an element of the business terms in the EU that reflects the value Apple provides developers through ongoing investments in the tools, technologies, and services that enable them to build and share innovative apps with users around the world." I feel sick. Yet, I am intrigued by what kind of drugs the PR team at Apple is taking... ;) In my opinion, Apple's proprietary APIs provide a…

The amount of backwards compatibility that Windows has built in is frankly insane. I've been going through a catalog of games and making sure they can run on modern Windows. Other than games that were written strictly for 16-bit, I haven't run into a game that can't be made to run. Sure, some require patches in the form of DLL shims, but it's rare that I even have to break out compatibility mode.
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