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Billionaire-Fueled Lobbying Group Behind the State Bills to Ban UBI Experiments

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Re: Billionaire-Fueled Lobbying Group Behind the State Bills to Ban UBI Experiments

#171

Post by spiderfarmer »

loudmax wrote: post #163
spiderfarmer wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a European I already think there is not much democracy left in the USA. At a federal level it's moving towards an autocracy at a rapid pace, and a large part of the electorate seems keen to cheer it on. At a local level money, gerrymandering and propaganda make it impossible to elect politicians who give a fair representation of people's interests. And with a two party system, it's more than likely that both of th…

As an American, I don't disagree about the threat to democracy in the United States, but I caution against excessive cynicism. Autocrats and would-be autocrats rely on the populace losing interest in politics and tuning out entirely. We need to realistically acknowledge the problems and work toward solutions. Not throw up our hands and give into injustice. The solution to democratic revival is citizen engagement, not…

I’m European, it’s not like I can vote in your country.

Re: Billionaire-Fueled Lobbying Group Behind the State Bills to Ban UBI Experiments

#172

Post by rayiner »

chabes wrote: post #167
rayiner wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that’s why OP cited the Congressional popular vote. What’s happening is that both parties gerrymander, so it largely cancels out. For example in Maryland, democrats won 65% of the 2022 Congressional popular vote, but hold 87.5% of the House seats. The 450,000 or so excess Republican votes—votes for republicans which didn’t contribute to a Republican house seat—cancels out some excess Democratic votes in Montana…

Indeed, but there are other factors at play, in regards to the influence of gerrymandering on voting in general

You can speculate about such factors, but the House popular vote tends to line up pretty well with opinion polling of the "generic Congressional ballot"--which is a nationwide measure that isn't affected by gerrymandering. For example, republicans were leading by up to 10 points in polling in 2010 before they ultimately won by 7 points: https://news.gallup.com/poll/142718/gop-unprecedented-lead-g....

Re: Billionaire-Fueled Lobbying Group Behind the State Bills to Ban UBI Experiments

#173

Post by throwawa14223 »

spiderfarmer wrote: post #170
throwawa14223 wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm very sympathetic to that I think we need far more ways for people to opt out based on freedom of religion/conscience to be able to maximize personal liberty. I don't like being forced by the government but I don't like others being forced either.

So does abortion fall under my personal liberty? Is reading a book with some sexual content permitted for a child?

I'd say yes, and yes for your child if that is what you want. I think you know better for you than I do. So as long as me and my family don't have to participate.

Re: Billionaire-Fueled Lobbying Group Behind the State Bills to Ban UBI Experiments

#174

Post by bluecalm »

ceejayoz wrote: post #119
bluecalm wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah and if you get a blowjob for free every morning your life is going to be better as well. The problem is someone needs to be forced to provide it. That's about how much those experiments are worth.

To extend the already really tortured analogy, we've got people who've managed to hoard many billions of... willing blowjob givers? And we've got people who... die from lack of blowjobs.

I mean, even if you take all the billionaires money and somehow liquidate it in efficient way it will only be enough for basic income of 500$/month for about 30 months (in USA). It's not like you can turn Tesla into housing for the poor though with any kind of efficiency so even that scenario is very unlikely.

If you want UBI long term you would need to heavily tax the middle class - people who work a lot and provide value every day. This is what always happens with such programs and happened in my country as well (where the UBI was very limited to 125$/month and only given per child).

It's easy to point into "evil billionaires" and say to take for them but in reality you need to take a lot more from a guy who built his career for 15+ years and is now a doctor or a programmer or a small business owner. This group already pays a lot in taxes, often in excess of 50% of what they make.

Re: Billionaire-Fueled Lobbying Group Behind the State Bills to Ban UBI Experiments

#175

Post by toomuchtodo »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #50
FirmwareBurner wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's mainly wealth distribution No it isn't. The problem is that all these programs never actually end up redistributing wealth, but they always end up redistributing income, usually taken via higher taxes from the already shrinking middle class, leading to further deepening of wealth inequality. As the super wealthy don't just have a public bank account with billions of $ under their own name, like your grandma, bu…

> As the super wealthy don't have a public bank account with billions of $ under their own name, but have their wealth under various entangled corporations, trust funds and non-profits, spread across various tax jurisdictions on and off shore, making very difficult to tax. Report it and have it taxed. A private company can land a rover on the moon but we can't perform ETL operations on asset reporting?

Relevant: https://www.theguardian.com/news/2024/feb/29/taxation-worlds... ("‘A historic step’: G20 discusses plans for global minimum tax on billionaires ")

Re: Billionaire-Fueled Lobbying Group Behind the State Bills to Ban UBI Experiments

#176

Post by ceejayoz »

bluecalm wrote: post #174
ceejayoz wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To extend the already really tortured analogy, we've got people who've managed to hoard many billions of... willing blowjob givers? And we've got people who... die from lack of blowjobs.

I mean, even if you take all the billionaires money and somehow liquidate it in efficient way it will only be enough for basic income of 500$/month for about 30 months (in USA). It's not like you can turn Tesla into housing for the poor though with any kind of efficiency so even that scenario is very unlikely. If you want UBI long term you would need to heavily tax the middle class - people who work a lot and provide…

"It's either the billionaires or the middle class" leaves out a pretty vast swath between 0.1M and 999M.

> This group already pays a lot in taxes, often in excess of 50% of what they make.

In theory, on paper, without any fiddles. In practice... nah. https://www.americanprogress.org/article/forbes-400-pay-lowe...

"A study by White House economists released on September 23 found that the 400 wealthiest U.S. families paid an average income tax rate of just 8.2 percent from 2010 to 2018."

Re: Billionaire-Fueled Lobbying Group Behind the State Bills to Ban UBI Experiments

#177

Post by tasty_freeze »

Gormo wrote: post #54
tasty_freeze wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you know anybody who is financially struggling? Would you tell them to their face that you consider them to be human pigeons? One problem with UBI is that it would go to millions of people and surely there will be tens of thousands that fulfill the stereotype that poor people just waste their money and a layabouts. That 5% or whatever will be provided as evidence ad nauseam that UBI is a boondoggle, entirely dismi…

> Do you know anybody who is financially struggling? I know plenty of people who are financially struggling. I am not convinced that the best way to help them is to make them perpetually dependent on the state for direct subsidies, instead of addressing the problems that are making it difficult them from becoming more financially secure within a pluralistic economy.

I agree that addressing the systemic issues that are contributing to inequality is ideal, but that is a huge tangle to unwind. UBI doesn't solve those issues.

But UBI is a pragmatic help to people here and now in a single stroke. The ideal solution would require somehow rewinding the clock to make corporations pay more taxes, undoing much of the corporate welfare, getting society to be truly colorblind (vs those who just claim they are as an excuse to not recognize racial discrimination), and so much more.

Re: Billionaire-Fueled Lobbying Group Behind the State Bills to Ban UBI Experiments

#178

Post by n2d4 »

Workaccount2 wrote: post #71
n2d4 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's false, "strictly economic theoretical speaking" inflation is a function of spending and savings (among others). If you take savings and use it to increase spendings, that causes demand-pull inflation.

Very few wealthy people keep their wealth in savings. Maybe now with interest rates up it is higher, but any prudent wealth advisor will steer most of that money pile back into the economy.

"Savings and investments" counts as one category here.

Re: Billionaire-Fueled Lobbying Group Behind the State Bills to Ban UBI Experiments

#179

Post by spiderfarmer »

throwawa14223 wrote: post #173
spiderfarmer wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So does abortion fall under my personal liberty? Is reading a book with some sexual content permitted for a child?

I'd say yes, and yes for your child if that is what you want. I think you know better for you than I do. So as long as me and my family don't have to participate.

Just so you know. A growing part of Americans feel that there are a lot of laws in place that force them to participate in something a shrinking part of America wants. You know all the talking points. Try to think from their point of view. Hopefully in a couple hundred years humanity has evolved to a point where we don't need religion to form clubs.

Re: Billionaire-Fueled Lobbying Group Behind the State Bills to Ban UBI Experiments

#180

Post by r00fus »

mamonster wrote: post #75
spiderfarmer wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a European I already think there is not much democracy left in the USA. At a federal level it's moving towards an autocracy at a rapid pace, and a large part of the electorate seems keen to cheer it on. At a local level money, gerrymandering and propaganda make it impossible to elect politicians who give a fair representation of people's interests. And with a two party system, it's more than likely that both of th…

Its the exact same thing in the majority of European countries.

It's moving slower in Europe, that's all.
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