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I don't want to work very hard

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Re: I don't want to work very hard

#171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, the only reason there even was a US atomic bomb so early was because the US military intercepted multiple uranium shipments bound for Japan. When Germany fell they tried to get enough refined material for the Japanese to get the bomb first so the war would be won by their allies and not their enemies. Fortunately the US Navy had recovered enough by that point in the war to hunt down the U-Boats. If the US Nav…

I know WWII was the most complex story ever in terms of ethics. Members of my own family died in the nazi death camps, so how could I be against fighting that war? However, no amount of complexity and evil could make me drop an A-bomb on a city. At some point I have to say, whatever the consequences, I'm just not going to do this. You don't torture. You don't kill indiscriminately. Otherwise there is nothing left wor…

War is all about making the other person stop fighting. War has been around as long as there have been people with different opinions and the will to use force to settle them.

These are super-ethical issues: ie, they exist regardless of your opinion of them. I hope there is no disagreement on them.

Throughout history all of the techniques you mention have been used to advance society in order to put you in a position of modern life being able to make your opinion to quit fighting under certain circumstances. Since you are alive right now, and must find some value to your life, it follows that after all of these conflicts in which your rules were not followed, there was still something left that was worth fighting for. At least at the level of civilization. So it follows that you at least value the results of other people with fewer qualms than you. Otherwise you should be living in a cave by firelight -- but fire was probably stolen by force involving torture, mass killings, etc. as well, so put the torch out.

That's at a civilization level. At a personal level, many folks throughout history have had moral issues with various parts of war. In the United States, many many times the rest of the populace fought wars the Quakers refused to participate in. In this case, either 1) you die, 2) you submit, or 3) somebody else with fewer moral qualms fights the war for you.

Morals are a key part of your personal life. I just wouldn't substitute my personal morals for my greater responsibility to mankind. My personal morals might be wrong, and if morals mean anything they mean the ability to introspect and change. I'm fully prepared to be wrong and face the personal consequences to me if my morals tell me to do or not to do something. It becomes selfish and grossly immoral, in my opinion, to inflict consequences on others under the banner of my own self-righteousness. War is a nasty, ugly business and it should be avoided at all costs mainly because of this equation: it strips us all to the primal need to dominate or die.

That's just my opinion. I would not mean to judge. I've found self-righteousness on both sides of the "just war" discussion, and it seems to hide the greater issue of how mankind as a race reacts and suffers.

Re: I don't want to work very hard

#172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know WWII was the most complex story ever in terms of ethics. Members of my own family died in the nazi death camps, so how could I be against fighting that war? However, no amount of complexity and evil could make me drop an A-bomb on a city. At some point I have to say, whatever the consequences, I'm just not going to do this. You don't torture. You don't kill indiscriminately. Otherwise there is nothing left wor…

War is all about making the other person stop fighting. War has been around as long as there have been people with different opinions and the will to use force to settle them. These are super-ethical issues: ie, they exist regardless of your opinion of them. I hope there is no disagreement on them. Throughout history all of the techniques you mention have been used to advance society in order to put you in a position…

You're implying that we would not be able to enjoy all the benefits of modern life (or even our own existence) if it wasn't for the atrocities of the past. I don't agree with that. The things I find valuable in the present might still be here, and more on top of it, if history had taken a differnt course.

But I never denied that some wars are justified. I'm just saying that winning them is not worth throwing out of the window all the things that we want to achieve by winning them.

Your logic is that by accepting defeat (in some extreme cases) instead of using torture and mass murder I also accept that these very things do in fact take hold. That's not a necessary conclusion though. Even lost wars have sometimes had the exact opposite effect of what the winner had expected. And vice versa you could win a war but lose the argument so thoroughly that the principles of your enemy prevail for generations.

Put differently, it is important how wars are won, not just that they are won, because wars are not the end of the world and we have to live with the consequences of how things were done in past wars.

Re: I don't want to work very hard

#173
Not sure if you'll like this answer, but although you may be comfortable with a low income now what about the following future life expenses?

* Marriage/Honeymoon * Kids/College * Retirement * Mortgage/House * Taking care of parents

I see your plan being tenable in a "no-dependents" scenario, but not so much if you need to provide for others.

My personal opinion is that any job you have will have at least 20% of BS you have to do in any role you have. Its the cost of working with people and organizations. Aim to reach that 20% level an if you can find a job with less BS stick with it.

Re: I don't want to work very hard

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

War is all about making the other person stop fighting. War has been around as long as there have been people with different opinions and the will to use force to settle them. These are super-ethical issues: ie, they exist regardless of your opinion of them. I hope there is no disagreement on them. Throughout history all of the techniques you mention have been used to advance society in order to put you in a position…

You're implying that we would not be able to enjoy all the benefits of modern life (or even our own existence) if it wasn't for the atrocities of the past. I don't agree with that. The things I find valuable in the present might still be here, and more on top of it, if history had taken a differnt course. But I never denied that some wars are justified. I'm just saying that winning them is not worth throwing out of t…

You realize, of course, that to sit in modern Germany alive and well (and being able to speak freely) is the result of two world wars, a cold war, a dozen or so continental wars (including ones that gave you religious freedom) countless invasions and counterinvasions by various tribes, the Romans seeking to pacify the Germanic tribes -- the limit of this list is simply the limits of our written record. Most all of these conflicts were fought "wrongly" according to your standards, because they involved torture and mass killings.

Your supposition is that somehow modern life would have come about without all of this dirty armed conflict. Since it did, in fact, happen the other way, the onus is on you to explain how all of this magic would work. I'm simply reporting to you that by your own standards you should still be living in a tribe in the woods somewhere.

Wars in many cases have different outcomes than the victors imagine. That's a non-sequiter, however, in that as 3-dimensional beings we are forced to make our best judgments and go forward. I'm not making an "ends justify the means" argument. I'm stating that the means must take into consideration what the ultimate ends will be for the human race, not just dither around about aspects of violence. Sometimes we get it wrong, sure, but that doesn't relieve us of our responsibility to think for more than just ourselves.

My personal morals say that I should never torture or kill. But I have a greater obligation to mankind than to myself. If forced, I have an obligation to my species that overrules the obligation I have to my conscience. It is better to die than violate one's personal morals, but it is better to violate one's personal morals than to let mankind perish. I am not the center of the moral universe.

That's some hard logic. Thanks for your response.

Re: I don't want to work very hard

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're implying that we would not be able to enjoy all the benefits of modern life (or even our own existence) if it wasn't for the atrocities of the past. I don't agree with that. The things I find valuable in the present might still be here, and more on top of it, if history had taken a differnt course. But I never denied that some wars are justified. I'm just saying that winning them is not worth throwing out of t…

You realize, of course, that to sit in modern Germany alive and well (and being able to speak freely) is the result of two world wars, a cold war, a dozen or so continental wars (including ones that gave you religious freedom) countless invasions and counterinvasions by various tribes, the Romans seeking to pacify the Germanic tribes -- the limit of this list is simply the limits of our written record. Most all of th…

"I'm simply reporting to you that by your own standards you should still be living in a tribe in the woods somewhere"

I'm afraid that's not "simply" reporting. That's a pretty far reaching and (in my view) far fetched assumption. Most atrocities were not committed in the name of anything that got us out of the woods. Quite the contrary. And those atrocities that were committed with that aim may not have been necessary to get us out of the woods after all. At least that's not the kind of certainty you make it out to be.

"My personal morals say that I should never torture or kill. But I have a greater obligation to mankind than to myself. If forced, I have an obligation to my species that overrules the obligation I have to my conscience"

I'm not rejecting this idea outright, but I will say that most of the time the uncertainties of a complex world are so vast that I could never be so convinced of the righteousness of my cause that I would torture or kill indiscriminately. What if I'm wrong? What if my torturing and killing causes more torturing and killing instead of less? Your argument is very popular among all kinds of extremists by the way (which doesn't mean I'm assuming you are one of them of course)

Re: I don't want to work very hard

#177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You realize, of course, that to sit in modern Germany alive and well (and being able to speak freely) is the result of two world wars, a cold war, a dozen or so continental wars (including ones that gave you religious freedom) countless invasions and counterinvasions by various tribes, the Romans seeking to pacify the Germanic tribes -- the limit of this list is simply the limits of our written record. Most all of th…

"I'm simply reporting to you that by your own standards you should still be living in a tribe in the woods somewhere" I'm afraid that's not "simply" reporting. That's a pretty far reaching and (in my view) far fetched assumption. Most atrocities were not committed in the name of anything that got us out of the woods. Quite the contrary. And those atrocities that were committed with that aim may not have been necessar…

It's reporting. We can go down the list of whatever moral values you have: freedom of religion, speech, the ability to assemble with other people who feel like you, your ability to have your own property, your ability to be responsible for your soul -- all of these come from armed conflict between one side who was against it and one side who was for it. And all armed conflict involved atrocities.

That's just history.

the uncertainties of a complex world are so vast that I could never be so convinced of the righteousness of my cause

This we agree upon. What I'm saying is that you are forced to make a decision. If you default to self-destruction by virtue of an inability to decide, or if you decide self-destruction is preferable to victory, then in fact you are still making a decision -- that decision is to let the other side have their way. You're on the hook either way. And in fact, I would argue that if the other side is committing atrocities as well, you're even more on the hook for inaction to prevent their atrocities from occurring.

In practice this isn't extremely complex, it's just unpleasant as heck. Let's use the European theater in the last war. Hitler was trying to exterminate the Jews and others. In addition, both sides committed atrocities (although history will show the allies committed much less than the Germans) In addition, both sides tortured.

Now you can argue to to participate on either side would be immoral. You can argue this from a variety of viewpoints. But at the end of the day one side was fighting in order for longer-term peace to happen where nations and people would be free. The other side was fighting to dominate large portions of Europe and the purify the Aryan race. Any reasonable observer would conclude that the greater good for mankind was more free people, not more dead subjected people.

Extremists may use these arguments. I don't know. If so, they would be obliged to point out how their viewpoint would lead to more free alive people and less dead subjected ones. Since extremism most of the times seeks to subject people and to destroy those who do not agree with them, I believe that rules out 99% of those groups.

You mention extremism. I must point out the other end of the spectrum: it has become fashionable to promote "peace at any cost" and high values in the abstract as long as doing so means I don't have to make moral decisions or participate. In other words, you can ride the high horse of self righteousness to keep out of the muck of actually participating in the world. But then, when a 9-11 rolls around, suddenly you're a rifle-carrying militia member again. Done in this way, and not out of deep moral conviction, it's a form of laziness and self-absorption. In other words, you can use good words and good morals to do very immoral things (like sitting on your ass and not stopping horrors where they occur for the real reason that it might involve some pain or self-sacrifice) And I am definitely not accusing you of this, simply pointing out that both extremes here have problems.

Re: I don't want to work very hard

#178
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair enough. For what it's worth, I've never received a negative performance review or been told I was underachieving. Maybe that sounds like a "Ooh, I'm a 10x rock star!" boast, but I think it more likely my work environments have been undemanding.

What would you fellow workers say about you? I have worked with people doing the 4 hour work week and honestly I can't say I was impressed. Kills the morale around the office when you work with loafers...

(1) Who cares what fellow workers would say? Do work to make them happy, or yourself/your family?

(2) What kills morale for me is idiot work-a-holics who think they will get ahead in the company by parking their butt in a seat more hours then anyone else. I worked on a team once with mostly contractors (paid hourly) and a couple of moron permis who were like that. They were averaging 12 hour days across the year. The contractors did it because they were well compensated for it. But the permis did it because they thought they could stand out this way. Get promotions, raises and bonuses. The problem was that working 12 hours would only make you average. I continued doing 42 hours. My boss told me I was not up to the standards of the team and needed to work more. I told him that wasn't going to happen, so they transferred me to a development team where I became a stand out (not hard to do given the kind of developers in IT), getting raises and good bonuses every time.

Our salaries were comparable and bonuses have a cap, so basically they were throwing away 3-4 hours away every day to keep up with the little rat race they had created for themselves.

Re: I don't want to work very hard

#179
post #20

As much as I sympathize with your sentiment, I'd just like to point out that the real benefit of a larger-than-necessary paycheque is being able to actually save money for when you are too old or technically outdated to continue working. It's certainly enjoyable to switch on and off from work and live off savings, but then you eventually get to the point where you can't find a job to switch back on to, and your savin…

Unless, of course, the company you've entrusted your savings to loses it all 2 weeks before you retire (e.g.gets heavily involved in opaque that end up being worthless)....

Re: I don't want to work very hard

#180

do what u love and u wont have to work a second of your life..

It's not that simple. If Da vinci would have been forced to sit in a pod all day every day, having meetings every morning about how much progress he thought he would make on some painting that he knew he would just be redoing again in 6 months after a management change, he probably would have grown to hate what he loved.

The thing I've personally found is that if you love coding it's probably best to get a job that doesn't involve coding. Coding (like most art I would imagine) is something you can really poor yourself into, take great pride in success and really be crushed by failure. As a consequence, doing this 40+ hours per week takes out of you any desire to do it outside of work. And of course that is problematic when you hope to use coding to become financially independent.

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