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The case against caffeine

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Re: The case against caffeine

#171

Post by [deleted] »

dahart wrote: post #150
pjc50 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not going to suggest that different people have different baseline biochemistry and would benefit from different things in different ways? No! That's not allowed! All health advice must fit all people, and people who don't fit the health advice shouldn't be allowed to complain about it. /sarcasm, but I've seen serious versions of this argument

I keep seeing versions of the argument that we’re all unique snowflakes and so all science is bad and all advice is untrustworthy bs. Usually the argument feels more like a variation on ‘you’re not the boss of me’ than a serious discussion of the science. This feels especially common to me when discussing diets; people seem to get pretty defensive whenever some advice or outcome has any way of being interpreted as th…

[deleted]

Re: The case against caffeine

#172

Post by ifyoubuildit »

graemep wrote: post #119
vinay_ys wrote: post #59

What we really know for sure is this – sleep is good, anxiety is bad. So, if you aren't getting good sleep, find ways to fix it. And if you are anxious all the time, find ways to fix it. By one tradition that's thousands of years old – Yoga+Pranayama+Meditation (linking physical/mental_movement+breadth) and fasting + eating moderately (eat only if you are hungry and eat enough to quench hunger, and eat 'satvik' food)…

> By one tradition that's thousands of years old It is hard to think of a major religious tradition that does not have most of these elements (fasting, moderation, practicing positive thought patterns) within it. The posture and movement bit is specific to that tradition - but even there I think things like "work and prayer" are not that different. > Coming to coffee, all coffee is not made the same way and everyone…

> I find the tone of the article a bit annoying. It reminds me of people on LinkedIn going on about how much better they feel since they gave up alcohol.

I'm curious about this. I notice this sentiment on any topic where someone quit somebody else's drug of choice.

Someone says they improved their life by dropping weed, the responses will be full of people telling you that alcohol is legal poison (nevermind that nobody was talking about alcohol) and weed is a miracle drug, and they are perfectly high functioning thank you very much.

Someone says they improved their life by dropping booze, everyone has to tell them how nobody lives forever, and didn't you see that study that says moderate drinking is healthy?

And so on for all the other substances people consume.

Its like a lot of people secretly feel like they have to justify their own usage whenever someone does something differently, as if they feel attacked for some reason. But you don't have to. You can put whatever you want in your body for whatever reason you choose. And if other people choose not to (and maybe even choose to write about it), why should that be a bother to you?

Re: The case against caffeine

#173

Post by thenoblesunfish »

I find things like this very tempting. I've tinkered for years with caffeine intake. (I love the effect on my brain, but the half life is looong for me). However, after a while you start to notice the pattern that you'd rather tinker with caffeine than face your real problems.

Re: The case against caffeine

#174

Post by riversflow »

thesz wrote: post #145
vinay_ys wrote: post #59

What we really know for sure is this – sleep is good, anxiety is bad. So, if you aren't getting good sleep, find ways to fix it. And if you are anxious all the time, find ways to fix it. By one tradition that's thousands of years old – Yoga+Pranayama+Meditation (linking physical/mental_movement+breadth) and fasting + eating moderately (eat only if you are hungry and eat enough to quench hunger, and eat 'satvik' food)…

> sleep is good, anxiety is bad. Sleep is not all good: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypersomnia Anxiety is not all bad: https://www.intechopen.com/chapters/43757 Sattvic food is not good for your health: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37085478/ and https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35710164/

Both of those studies on foods consider only people who already have Non-alcoholic fatty liver disease. One of them is about specifically sugary beverages, not whole fruit. Neither show “Sattvic food is not good for your health”.

Re: The case against caffeine

#175

Post by aworks »

1letterunixname wrote: post #84

It's the most widely-abused performance enhancing drug, but each person will need to assess the tradeoffs, long-term implications, and unknowns: + Productivity + Focus + Clarity + Symptomatic cure for migraines ~+ Probable neuroprotectiveness ~ Mild anorectic ~- Unclear GERD risks ~- Weak anticholinergic - probably not tardive dyskinesia or dementia, but the long-term effects are unclear - Increased heart rate and bl…

I wasn't aware of the migraine cure.

When I had headaches, my neurologist told me to cut out alcohol, binge TV watch and caffeine. That helped but did not cure me.

Then during the pandemic I started the enjoyable daily habit of drinking sparkling HopTea (some caffeine, no alcohol). It's definitely a diuretic but I can't say about other symptoms

Re: The case against caffeine

#176

Post by chankstein38 »

Facts. I avoid caffeine as much as possible. I still only sleep 5-6hrs/night (circumstance) but I have way more energy throughout the day than caffeine ever gave me. Now adays I'm so sensitive to it that a Strawberry Dragonfruit Refresher from Dunkin will leave me feeling a body anxiety without the brain anxiety. I sit there after drinking one feeling just uncomfortable and cold. Sometimes my palms sweat.

It's just not fun. I'm glad I quit caffeine!

Re: The case against caffeine

#177

Post by throwaway89988 »

I might be able to add several points to this discussion: - For me, caffeine has really bad impact on my sleep quality, and it is an accumulative effect: After being abstinent for 1-2 weeks, I can drink 2 cups of coffee in the morning, and I will have good sleep. After 1-3 days of daily 2 cups of coffee, my sleep quality goes down - Most research about safety of coffee is done with young, healthy adults w/o any medical preconditions. Which translates to, everything found in the research is objectively true, still it totally cannot apply to your, your health and life circumstances - Finally, I observe people around me which can tolerate higher amounts of caffeine w/o any side effects. To the best of my knowledge there are very individual tolerance levels for caffeine and also very individual metabolization speeds

tldr: - caffeine is known to increase anxiety, heart rate and disturb sleep - YMMV and it even might vary depending on your age, phase of life, other activities - if you observe feeling stressed, problems with sleeping or winding down, try to avoid caffeine/alcohol/etc. for a few weeks and observe if you feel better

Re: The case against caffeine

#178

Post by riversflow »

munchler wrote: post #118
simonsarris wrote: post #103

To add another anecdote: I drink minimum one small pot of coffee a day (a pour-over I make with my wife, 30g/450g beans/water), plus a moka pot or two in the afternoon, or a 15g pour-over. And 1-3 espresso shots if I go into the office. I consider the coffee experience positively euphoric. Almost spiritual. Certainly ritual. I would never give up the time of sitting with my wife for half an hour to an hour each morni…

> And 1-3 espresso shots if I go into the office. I consider the coffee experience positively euphoric. Almost spiritual. As someone who doesn’t consume caffeine, this sounds a lot like addiction. You can keep the ritual and ditch the caffeine by drinking decaf if you want.

Why does it sound like addiction and not just enjoying something?

I don’t get this sentiment.

Re: The case against caffeine

#179

Post by Kirby64 »

debt wrote: post #3

If you're going to drink decaf, be sure to drink decaf prepared via the Swiss water method. It has the least additives, healthiest option and tastes pretty good.

Citation needed. It’s possible it may taste the best, but I am skeptical of your claim that it is the healthiest.

One of the common methods of decaffeinating coffee uses supercritical CO2, which is in my view significantly less scary than the “proprietary green coffee extract” used by the Swiss Water process.

I suspect neither is actually harmful. And neither is the chemical solvent based decaf, honestly. Not in levels that are meaningful to health.

Re: The case against caffeine

#180

Post by munchler »

riversflow wrote: post #178
munchler wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And 1-3 espresso shots if I go into the office. I consider the coffee experience positively euphoric. Almost spiritual. As someone who doesn’t consume caffeine, this sounds a lot like addiction. You can keep the ritual and ditch the caffeine by drinking decaf if you want.

Why does it sound like addiction and not just enjoying something? I don’t get this sentiment.

Significant doses of a psychoactive drug on a regular basis.
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