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Browser extensions are underrated: the promise of hackable software (2019)

geoffreylitt.com

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Re: Browser extensions are underrated: the promise of hackable software (2019)

#171
post #148

Post author here! I wrote this post five years ago. Since then, my conviction in the value of customizable software has only grown, but I've also updated my thinking in a few ways: 1) AI AI is rapidly getting better at coding. Current AI is often bad at high-level architecture but is capable of making small local tweaks. Seems like a good fit for the kind of code you need to write a browser extension! I'm exploring t…

Are you sure browser extensions improve the web apps?

Maybe they attempt to fix them because they're limited by the platform and mostly low quality software?

Re: Browser extensions are underrated: the promise of hackable software (2019)

#172

I love browser extensions both as a user and as a hacker. The elephant in the room is browser extensions are not a web standard and Google or Firefox can make a breaking change to you at any time “for security”. Also Chrome can boot you out of the store or ask for 100 point ID check in the future. Extensions are great but a web standard for them would be even better.

They're working on that: https://www.w3.org/community/webextensions/

Re: Browser extensions are underrated: the promise of hackable software (2019)

#173
post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Forget all that. 1. They increase the attack surface of the browser 2. They have routinely been transferred to (for money) or taken over by malicious entities 3. Often they subtly break things in ways that are fine for expert users but which result in support reach out by others The whole extension thing is a mess.

Honestly as much as I love Firefox this is an underrated concern. Firefox allows their extensions to be far more powerful than Chrome's, but that power means they are also far more dangerous. If Firefox were to really take off (like it should, imho), are we really ready for a web full of people being attacked by the worst spyware ever? Chrome, for all its faults, has ruined their extension framework at least in part…

I’d be really curious about in a system where browser extensions are limited to ~200 lines of code. No mechanism for distribution beyond typing text in. No concerns about permission. It would be interesting to see what people can do in an ecosystem where extensions can actually do anything but it is expected that people will actually read the code before running it.

Re: Browser extensions are underrated: the promise of hackable software (2019)

#174

Just the framing of "browser extensions" is extremely problematic in the year 2024. Most browser extensions by weight are Google Chrome extensions. Google Chrome is unambiguously demonstrating that no API is safe in its quest to juice revenues. Anybody who builds extensions using Chrome's APIs should be very aware that they're quite possibly putting effort into something a juggernaut will stomp away without a second…

"I don't care to live in strategically lost situatios like this, so I think the conversation should be about Firefox extensions."

Why would the conversation not be about editing the Firefox source code to add or remove "features" to meet one's personal needs.

What is the point of "open source" if, to use the term from the submission title, the software is effectively un-"hackable".

There is no small amount of "attack surface", and many unneeded "features", that could be removed from Firefox to someone's benefit, maybe it's only one user,^0 but but that will effectively never happen. Why. It is open source so anyone should be able to audit the code and change it to their liking.

0. To be clear, I am not commenting about "most users" or the majority of users or whatever. I am referring to the small class of users who are explicitly dissatisfied.

In 1995, there were numerous non-commercial browsers. Netscape, the source of Mozilla, was one of the few attempting to commercialise.

https://www.w3.org/Clients.html

There is nothing wrong with having "all-in-one" programs. As long as other "not-all-in-one" programs also exist as alternatives.

Arguably, the aim of the "all-in-one" program may be to obviate the existence of other programs, namely smaller, simpler ones.

Those pushing gigantic web browsers might assume and argue, e.g., that it is inconvenient to have different programs for different tasks. This could be true. For some users. However it is also true that small programs can be made to work with each other. UNIX is the example. Over thirty years of continual growth. The companies behind the giant browsers probably could not survive without it. There is choice.

Large "all-in-one" programs and small ones like UNIX utilities can co-exist. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Personally, I prefer not to use a giant browser to make HTTP requests on the open internet. It is overkill and there is a profound lack of user control. (Hence "solutions" like "sandboxing", and an ever-incresing number of Band-Aids that serve only to add more needless complexity. The companies releasing these giant "all-in-one" programs are funded by advertising. Enough said.) For me the "modern" browser is more useful as an image viewer and media player.

It is possible to "browse" the web without advertising, tracking or other annoyances, I do it every day,^1 but not with one of these giant advertising-supported "all-in-one" programs like the "modern" web browser. It is a losing battle to try. No amount of "extensions" can change the balance of power over those giant programs.

Despite that these "browsers" are "open source", dissatisfied users who know how to program are not editing the source code to remove the bad bits. Instead they helplessly complain in forums like HN.

1. I am not a typical user. (Though I might be in 1995.) I prefer text over graphics. I like to read without distraction. Because text is easy for the user to manipulate, it seems to have a defense against advertising that is not available with graphics. For example, if text ads were inserted into response bodies, I can easily filter them out.

Re: Browser extensions are underrated: the promise of hackable software (2019)

#175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ultimately, as a society, we have to decide what is more important: the best of us or the worst of us.

"Those who give up freedom for security deserve neither."

The real quote is more nuanced: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety". It's a balance, obviously. I'm happy to have guardrails if they improve non-technical users' safety.

Re: Browser extensions are underrated: the promise of hackable software (2019)

#176
post #83
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Many popular browser extensions were bought up by data brokers that use them to exfiltrate browser history, so not sure if they’re underrated I would say, as the developer of an upfront paid web browser extension, that upfront paid web browser extensions are underrated. ;-) It's a truism that if you're not the customer, you're the product. But what if you are the customer? I think a lot of the mistrust of browser e…

I will leave this as a gallery of emails with offers to buy extension hoverzoom: https://github.com/extesy/hoverzoom/discussions/670 Sidenote: The "collaboration" offers come from time to time even to non-extensions projects, if they are reasonably widely used. E.g. simple tools (rather widely used suite of android apps recently sold).

Out of curiosity, those Russian messages are in Russian because you are Russian or an eastern solicitor simply doesn't give a F?

Re: Browser extensions are underrated: the promise of hackable software (2019)

#177
post #148

Post author here! I wrote this post five years ago. Since then, my conviction in the value of customizable software has only grown, but I've also updated my thinking in a few ways: 1) AI AI is rapidly getting better at coding. Current AI is often bad at high-level architecture but is capable of making small local tweaks. Seems like a good fit for the kind of code you need to write a browser extension! I'm exploring t…

The security problem of open platforms is the key.

Anything that is open enough to let someone who knows what they're doing customize the system to their liking, will also be abused by bad actors persuading people who don't know what they are doing to customize the system in ways that harm them.

The fact I can write my own custom keyboards on Android is great! But the fact someone can convince your grandparents to install a keyboard that includes an embedded key logger is not!

Browser extensions have always been a malware-rich ecosystem. Joking about removing all the toolbars from your parents' Internet Explorer whenever you went home for thanksgiving dates back to about 1999.

Re: Browser extensions are underrated: the promise of hackable software (2019)

#178
post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly as much as I love Firefox this is an underrated concern. Firefox allows their extensions to be far more powerful than Chrome's, but that power means they are also far more dangerous. If Firefox were to really take off (like it should, imho), are we really ready for a web full of people being attacked by the worst spyware ever? Chrome, for all its faults, has ruined their extension framework at least in part…

I’d be really curious about in a system where browser extensions are limited to ~200 lines of code. No mechanism for distribution beyond typing text in. No concerns about permission. It would be interesting to see what people can do in an ecosystem where extensions can actually do anything but it is expected that people will actually read the code before running it.

My reaction would be simpler: Anything that's identified as risky? Show the user. Extension is making an HTTP request? Show the body in a toast. Extension is reading the keyboard? Same thing. Extension is looking at the page? Little icon in the corner showing the name of the extension and that it looked. Can't be turned off. So extensions can still do all that crazy stuff, but they're noisy about it.

Re: Browser extensions are underrated: the promise of hackable software (2019)

#179
I love working with hackable software. I kind of attack it at the source level vs writing for the browser however. For example, say there’s some tool on a git repo. I will shamelessly clone it and build off of it to my own liking. Maybe I add another 1% to the code base, or maybe that repo becomes 1% of a codebase I write on my own. These are tools I could never share however, because of the rampant plagiarism I am doing, and the fact I don’t much care about getting it to run on different systems beyond my own. That being said fast and loose coding like this is a very powerful way to iterate on personal projects that never need to be anything but. I wish more things were actually hackable especially mobile or appliance hardware. Companies never like giving the power users the reigns for some reason.

Re: Browser extensions are underrated: the promise of hackable software (2019)

#180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The bar to write secure desktop software is significantly higher than for browser extensions. Especially with all the Electron crap these days, you're one XSS away from full-blown RCE.

Absolutely, but the short and long terms risk posed to most by installing random browser extensions willy-nilly is still almost certainly higher than that of instead opting for vetted desktop apps, especially if using PWAs in place of Electron apps where possible (which I do).

Desktop apps are no more vetted than Firefox extensions.
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