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Americans don't believe middle class can afford homes

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Re: Americans don't believe middle class can afford homes

#171

Post by scaryclam »

NDizzle wrote: post #104
whatindaheck wrote: post #99

I just turned 30. If I can’t afford a house in the next 10 years I’m going to be a lifelong renter. Why get a 30 year mortgage at 40, to only pay it off at 70 and then die in two decades? It feels like the wrong thing to do but…I really don’t know how else to look at it. Sure. I could afford a house today where I grew up. But I’d have to surround myself with the highly undesirable culture (in my opinion) in those pla…

> Why get a 30 year mortgage at 40, to only pay it off at 70 and then die in two decades? 1) Inflation hedge. 2) At some point in the next 30 years, you will be able to sell your home at / above what you paid for it, just due to the cyclical nature of things. I'm not saying real estate always goes up... but for example, I bought at age 41. $515k. Current estimated value, $900k. When the kids are all graduated and out…

I think the idea of being able to downsize (or stay where you are after paying your mortgage off) is underrated. Going into retirement with no big outgoing costs for housing outside of insurance and maintenance is a big upside of owning a house (I'm not in the US, so no property taxes either). You don't need to make a profit on a home for it to pay off longer term.

Having a pension that can cover living costs while NOT having to also cover rent gives a lot of security. While it's also an option to get cheaper rent and put the difference into another investment, rent costs are hard to predict, so I'd rather not end up worrying about it later in life.

Re: Americans don't believe middle class can afford homes

#172

Post by dragontamer »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #169
dragontamer wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What happens when you build houses where people want to live? You create immeasurable value, wealth, and dignity to hundreds, thousands, or even tens-of-thousands of people. So we should do that. Full stop.

Everybody deserves a luxury condo in SF? This is not going to end well, even the communists decided this was a bad idea. Full stop.

When did I say luxury condo?

I'm pushing for trailer parks (aka, low end housing), and other cheap forms of housing most of all. Townhomes or Multiplexes as well.

Cheap, dense, highly deployable. There are other forms of dense housing (multiplex units) and whatnot as well. People don't necessarily need the best house per se, but having at least a crappy housing market that's vibrant and healthy is hugely important to the lower class.

Re: Americans don't believe middle class can afford homes

#173

Post by Sohcahtoa82 »

jemmyw wrote: post #155
bugglebeetle wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s how liberals resolve the cognitive dissonance of getting someone poorer than them to pay for their mortgage, without seeing themselves as greedy or parasitic.

I don't really know what this means, I'm not American. I would say that all these people are more right of centre if liberal means left wing.

In America, "Liberal" can mean different things depending on where you sit on the spectrum.

If you divide the spectrum into just left/center/right, then people on the right would label both left and center as liberal, but people on the left would label just the center as liberal. I don't know what the centrists would label as liberal because we have very few genuine centrists. Most of them are actually right-wing but don't want to admit it.

To me, a liberal is someone that sees one group of people that wants to lynch all black people, another group saying "hey we just want to live", and thinking there's a compromise that can be made. A liberal seeks to maintain the status quo and to keep things quiet and peaceful. They prioritize order over justice.

Re: Americans don't believe middle class can afford homes

#174

Post by seanmcdirmid »

dragontamer wrote: post #172
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everybody deserves a luxury condo in SF? This is not going to end well, even the communists decided this was a bad idea. Full stop.

When did I say luxury condo? I'm pushing for trailer parks (aka, low end housing), and other cheap forms of housing most of all. Townhomes or Multiplexes as well. Cheap, dense, highly deployable. There are other forms of dense housing (multiplex units) and whatnot as well. People don't necessarily need the best house per se, but having at least a crappy housing market that's vibrant and healthy is hugely important to…

So something like Hong Kong's old Kowloon Walled City? I mean, its been tried, slums and shanty towns exist in spades in other countries. I don't call that living. Or if you want better than developing world, the Parisian suburbs, where...only a few cars are lit on fire a year now.

Re: Americans don't believe middle class can afford homes

#175

Post by dragontamer »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #174
dragontamer wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When did I say luxury condo? I'm pushing for trailer parks (aka, low end housing), and other cheap forms of housing most of all. Townhomes or Multiplexes as well. Cheap, dense, highly deployable. There are other forms of dense housing (multiplex units) and whatnot as well. People don't necessarily need the best house per se, but having at least a crappy housing market that's vibrant and healthy is hugely important to…

So something like Hong Kong's old Kowloon Walled City? I mean, its been tried, slums and shanty towns exist in spades in other countries. I don't call that living. Or if you want better than developing world, the Parisian suburbs, where...only a few cars are lit on fire a year now.

You're going to get the Shanty Town whether you like it or not. https://www.kqed.org/news/11966960/san-francisco-is-clearing...

Low-cost housing solves the worst-of-the-worst problems. Its better for the poor to live in cheap rowhomes or trailer-parks than for them to be roaming the streets at night in de-facto homeless encampments.

Re: Americans don't believe middle class can afford homes

#176

Post by quickslowdown »

financypants wrote: post #117
quickslowdown wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like financypants lives in a beautiful world where corporations aren't greedy shitbags engaged in price gouging

I’m not really addressing greedy corporation shitbags. I’m talking about the relationship between rates and prices. If you need someone to vent to about shitbag greedy corporations, go elsewhere. (I’m not disagreeing that corps are shitty greedy horrible inhuman profit machines)

That's the point I'm making, though. You're ignoring Occam's Razor, that the most likely explanation, when none of the others fit quite right, is greed.

Re: Americans don't believe middle class can afford homes

#177

Post by dragontamer »

quickslowdown wrote: post #176
financypants wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not really addressing greedy corporation shitbags. I’m talking about the relationship between rates and prices. If you need someone to vent to about shitbag greedy corporations, go elsewhere. (I’m not disagreeing that corps are shitty greedy horrible inhuman profit machines)

That's the point I'm making, though. You're ignoring Occam's Razor, that the most likely explanation, when none of the others fit quite right, is greed.

A greedy investor would have built more homes that better matched our population dynamics.

Greed is insufficient to explain the problem. We have a market failure here for sure. (Markets work even in the presence of greed, with the proper regulatory environment. Whatever the hell has gone wrong with our society over the last 30 years to cause us to stop building houses is... well... "Greed" just is insufficient to explain the behavior)

Re: Americans don't believe middle class can afford homes

#178

Post by willis936 »

ryandrake wrote: post #144
hasty_pudding wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Health care, automobile price, groceries, education . we can buy a TV cheaper than ever but anything important has massive inflation

Yea, well... but besides the costs of health care, automobiles, groceries, education, and homes (I'd also add gas and energy), things are totally better than 30 years ago! In other words, I'd trade lifestyles with my "parents of 30 years ago" any day.

I would not. This is the first time a generation has been able to say this in 400 years. I would much rather have no cell phones or big TVs if it meant I could have a place of my own.

Re: Americans don't believe middle class can afford homes

#179

Post by ta1243 »

ToucanLoucan wrote: post #170
ta1243 wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about raising the floor of poverty? As a wealthy parents you can already afford massive leg-ups with your children by supporting their education and offering the opportunities. How does inheriting 300k when they turn 50 help?

In the current market, it's the only way many millennials and zoomers will ever own a home.

Any many more won't be able to because their parents don't own a home?

Carry on like that and you end up with the landed gentry and feudalism.

Far better to ensure millennials (many who are now in their 40s) and zoomers can own a home regardless of their parents. One way would be to prevent generational transfer of wealth -- meaning that everyone is in the same boat, you have to work on your merits, rather than who your parents are.

Re: Americans don't believe middle class can afford homes

#180

Post by cykros »

whatindaheck wrote: post #99

I just turned 30. If I can’t afford a house in the next 10 years I’m going to be a lifelong renter. Why get a 30 year mortgage at 40, to only pay it off at 70 and then die in two decades? It feels like the wrong thing to do but…I really don’t know how else to look at it. Sure. I could afford a house today where I grew up. But I’d have to surround myself with the highly undesirable culture (in my opinion) in those pla…

Most people don't take 30 years to pay off their mortgage, which is why mortgage rates tend to move with the 10 year treasury rather than say, the 30 year rate. The investors generally assume the average prepayment results in them being paid off in about 10 years, and since they're the ones the mortgage lender is offloading to, it's what your rate is determined by.

You buy a house, service the mortgage while you're there, then sell it (using the proceeds to pay off the mortgage), and if you've not made a bad investment, you come out with more money than you went in with, which presumably, you put toward a down payment on your next home. If you're downsizing, it may mean you're buying your next home outright, or with very little of the capital borrowed.

Unless, of course, your property value declines. Watch out for bubbles, and get sensible insurance to mitigate the risks.

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