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Remote work doesn't seem to affect productivity, Fed study finds

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Re: Remote work doesn't seem to affect productivity, Fed study finds

#171

Post by surgical_fire »

safety1st wrote: post #43
randomdata wrote: post #7

> If remote work boosts productivity in a substantial way, then it should improve productivity performance Not necessarily given the methodology. For example, if remote work allows a worker to do their laundry in parallel where they would be otherwise unable to in an office, their productivity has increased, but the gains would not show up in the study. It observes industry productivity, not work productivity.

Sure, but then we're discussing remote work as an employee benefit, which is a different discussion driven by a different part of the company etc. Not as a thing which improves the company's bottom line which is where C suite and shareholders spend the vast majority of their attention. If it doesn't improve job productivity then at the level where decisions get made I can think of two really significant points regard…

> just don't want to acknowledge the existence of B

Because outsourcing is nothing new. Hiring people in cheaper markets is something companies have been doing for many decades already, with varying degrees of success, long before remote work was even a thing.

There are many other issues with outsourcing - for example: time zones, language, work culture, exchange rates - that go beyond the hot topic of "butts in seats".

Re: Remote work doesn't seem to affect productivity, Fed study finds

#172

Post by lynx23 »

randomdata wrote: post #7

> If remote work boosts productivity in a substantial way, then it should improve productivity performance Not necessarily given the methodology. For example, if remote work allows a worker to do their laundry in parallel where they would be otherwise unable to in an office, their productivity has increased, but the gains would not show up in the study. It observes industry productivity, not work productivity.

I guess your boss doesn't really care if you managed to do laundry during work hours. You personally might care since you saved yourself some time, but that is a very personal thing. OTOH, if family is at home, it is also very easy for them to grab you for something seemingly important. With the "right" demanding wife, your boss always looses.

Re: Remote work doesn't seem to affect productivity, Fed study finds

#173

Post by epolanski »

The fundamental issue I see in this debate is a lack of sensibility and nuance in human nature.

The whole matter is debated (understandably in a way) on big numbers and averages.

I could write a long post but I'll cut it short to this paragraph stating that humans differ.

For some commuting is stressful, the offices are noisy and full of distractions and those individuals may thrive in a remote setup. There's people that work in the opposite way. Their house offer many distractions from laundry to videogames. Some people require micro management and constant oversight some tilt in such environments.

Some teams require a lot of meaningful in-person interactions, brainstorming sessions or work chats around the coffee machine. Some teams thrive with good central top/down planning and workload splitting where syncing isn't very important.

At the end of the day the decision C-suite have to make when planning projects is not remote vs non-remote and apply blindly rather in forming teams with people that by their own nature or preferences will thrive in the setup that's decided.

Re: Remote work doesn't seem to affect productivity, Fed study finds

#174

Post by gnz11 »

reducesuffering wrote: post #95
dymk wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The commercial real estate market is a lot bigger than $5B.

But FAANG doesn’t care about the commercial real estate market, so why would they make any decisions based on it?

Why single out FAANG? FAANG companies aren’t the only ones pushing RTO. The study analyzed 43 different industries.

Re: Remote work doesn't seem to affect productivity, Fed study finds

#175

Post by lynx23 »

Levitz wrote: post #123
californical wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not? Companies will eventually sort into ones where likeminded people are together. Some will be more friendly to remote than others. If I want to work in person with people, I’ll join a company that agrees. If someone wants to be remote, they might have to join a different company.

Assuming that there are no differences in productivity, working on-site is borderline morally evil. It's unhealthier (loads of sleep deprivation out there), it's bad for the environment and its costs are higher. We can argue all day if the perks of in-person work are worth the cost, but if there aren't any perks besides "I just prefer it that way" I don't think there is even a valid discussion to have. We are talking…

I work on-site, and #1 and #2 of your argument do not apply to me. You forgot to define preconditions. You are finger-pointing at those which work on-site and have a relatively high distance between home and work. I walk to my workplace, which is healthy and does not produce any CO2. And I am not loosing sleep, because I walk 10 minutes. Just because you dont like a thing doesn't mean you thought it through.

Re: Remote work doesn't seem to affect productivity, Fed study finds

#176

Post by blagie »

epolanski wrote: post #173

The fundamental issue I see in this debate is a lack of sensibility and nuance in human nature. The whole matter is debated (understandably in a way) on big numbers and averages. I could write a long post but I'll cut it short to this paragraph stating that humans differ. For some commuting is stressful, the offices are noisy and full of distractions and those individuals may thrive in a remote setup. There's people…

This is my experience. My productivity on coding is a lot hire remote. On many leadership / management-style tasks, it's a lot lower.

Come to think of it, I'm wondering if that's where the split comes in. Upper management sees their productivity go down -- on what's fundamentally an interpersonal endeavour -- while individual contributors see theirs go up -- on what's primarily solitary ones. As a result, there is friction with top-down work-from-office mandates.

Re: Remote work doesn't seem to affect productivity, Fed study finds

#177

Post by gumballindie »

People advocating for on site work are people without an inner voice. They need to constantly externalise thinking.

Anyway working from home does increase productivity for the individual, improves the economy due to more disposable income, benefits the mental health of those with an inner voice, and stimulates family life.

Re: Remote work doesn't seem to affect productivity, Fed study finds

#178

Post by drakonka »

aurareturn wrote: post #5
SoftTalker wrote: post #2

Most employees can screw around websurfing or shopping just as well at work as at home. They mostly do it because they are bored. Give them interesting, meaningful work and they will be productive.

>Give them interesting, meaningful work and they will be productive. How much meaningful and interesting work do you think exists in this world? Every time this topic gets brought up, someone will say "Just give people interesting work, pay them well, don't micromanage them!" as if these jobs grow on trees. And even if these jobs do exist, they're usually reserved for workers who are extremely motivated and capable -…

I am not sure, but I have always pursued this kind of work by default and aggressively. Of course there will always be ups and downs, but when it stops feeling interesting, meaningful, and challenging for a prolonged period of time, I generally move on (or switch teams/projects!). But while it remains overall interesting and meaningful, I stay and hold on to it for as long as I possibly can. This has meant that I haven't job-hopped very much to climb the salary ladder, but have been very engaged and interested in every position. It's been a worthwhile tradeoff.

Re: Remote work doesn't seem to affect productivity, Fed study finds

#179

Post by ponector »

realusername wrote: post #111
safety1st wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but then we're discussing remote work as an employee benefit, which is a different discussion driven by a different part of the company etc. Not as a thing which improves the company's bottom line which is where C suite and shareholders spend the vast majority of their attention. If it doesn't improve job productivity then at the level where decisions get made I can think of two really significant points regard…

> I think a lot of people with an employee mindset just don't want to acknowledge the existence of B Because the outsourcing threat was a thing before remote working, remote working changes nothing to that. Employers love to bring this up on the subject of remote working but if they could outsource your work to an Indian paid 10x less, they would have done it already. Those employers are deluded if they think remote…

Outsourcing jobs and salaries exploded with COVID. 100k USD annual compensation is insane for many countries.

You can get best people overseas for a fraction of US costs, and with no obligation attached to you by labor laws.

I'm glad this happens so I can use geographic arbitrage: work for US client but live in nice place in Europe with reasonable costs of living.

Re: Remote work doesn't seem to affect productivity, Fed study finds

#180

Post by gumballindie »

safety1st wrote: post #43
randomdata wrote: post #7

> If remote work boosts productivity in a substantial way, then it should improve productivity performance Not necessarily given the methodology. For example, if remote work allows a worker to do their laundry in parallel where they would be otherwise unable to in an office, their productivity has increased, but the gains would not show up in the study. It observes industry productivity, not work productivity.

Sure, but then we're discussing remote work as an employee benefit, which is a different discussion driven by a different part of the company etc. Not as a thing which improves the company's bottom line which is where C suite and shareholders spend the vast majority of their attention. If it doesn't improve job productivity then at the level where decisions get made I can think of two really significant points regard…

> B. There might be an opportunity to reduce cost because we could recruit contractors in other countries instead of full-time US employees. (Which in turn is going to undermine labor's bargaining power in the US...)

The biggest drive for overseas recruitment will be ai. Extracting knowledge for western workers and transferring it to cheaper workers overseas will be the new manufacturing outsourcing. A workers without the high quality training the west provides will suddenly be able to compensate using tools trained against the knowledge produced by their western counterpart.

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